CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

9 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Well though I am against abortion and am not of the alphabet of  depravity titles that many associate themselves with, I do know one cannot have freedom and outlaw these activities and thoughts at the same time.

Christianity cannot be forced on anyone.  We are to be a bright light in contrast for sure; but the light of Christ Jesus does not extinguish the dark cloud of evilness by force of law.

Christians  are used to do so only by the power of the Holy Spirit, reaching out one by one by one in a otherwise fallen creation to share of the gospel message of Jesus. We are to love one another  as we love God. never hating  people for their state of mind and spirit.

No matter what is wrong, within any person. God can fix it. For Christians to try to outlaw what is needed to be changed in one's heart and mind is counterproductive. 

I understand what you're saying, but I think you're forgetting one important thing. Laws are always going to exist. People say you can't legislate morality, yet that's exactly what laws are. All laws are a form of morality from either one group or another. If Christians do not take an active role in creating the laws of this nation, then we leave to the atheists that duty and responsibility. We have seen especially recently the extreme danger of letting the godless dictate what the laws will be in the country. Sin will run rampant and God's people will be persecuted. Christians have a duty to create moral laws that benefit all people. If Christians sit on the sidelines, we won't even be able to witness our faith or evangelize our neighbors because the lawless in power will take away that right from us. I would prefer to live in a country where I don't have to risk imprisonment for my faith, but if no Christians stand up for us in government or politics, then that is exactly the type of decision we will all end up having to make.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

8 hours ago, Questioning said:

I don't have time to respond to every point you have made in your posts, but will say this.  My ideas of morality are more in line with the teachings of Jesus---not the stories and laws found in the Old Testament, which I refered to above.  It seems a lot of your ideas (and of the movement you belong to) come from the OT, rather than Jesus.  I do not want the USA to head in that direction.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Obviously there was an extensive law code for the nation of Israel in the Old testament, and I don't think most Christians would see any faults in the morality code that God gave. Most Christians would say that murder, theft, assault are wrong. Jesus certainly does not advocate going against the laws of man. Paul and Romans 13 says to obey the authorities. I think it's safe to say that Jesus made clear that things like theft, abortion, homosexuality, blasphemy, and idolatry are all grave crimes against God. I don't know what moral code you referring to, as Jesus didn't contradict anything in the Old testament. However even setting the Old testament aside, Paul gives numerous rules for the church in his writings, and since Paul was inspired by God to write his letters and especially since he says that he got all of his teachings directly from Jesus himself, Paul's writings have the same full force as jesus's words in the Gospels. But out of curiosity sake, I would be very interested to know what you mean by your morality falls in line with Jesus. That's a curious statement and I would love for you to expand on that.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

6 hours ago, Slibhin said:

I'm calling this out.

Firstly:

How exactly in your mind is Biden against Israel or it's sovereignty?

- He vetoed every resolution against Israel.

- He calls himself a Zionist.

- He still sends them military support, even bypassing congress to do so.

He has refused to take any action whatsoever against Israel despite the entire world condemning them for ethnic cleansing and war crimes. The most he's done is suggest they show "restraint". He's refused to take any action to the point it has cost him massive support from his base, likely lost him Michigan, and may cost him the election. If he was against Israel he would have this problem. Even I'm more against Israel then he is, and I'm an Israeli Jew.

Secondly:

What exactly does Biden do that prevents your religious freedom? Ironically something you claim while posting freely on a Christian forum based in the United States. You have entire Christian television networks, there are over 350 thousand churches operating and you can talk openly without being arrested. Can you explain where the persecution, government sanctioned religious impediments and anti-Christian discrimination by the state are? Don't just allege it, show me the proof.

You've obviously never been to a country where actual Christian discrimination is. I've been to countries where Christians get arrested and have to meet in secret, you don't have that problem.

Thirdly:

Biden hasn't done much of anything for abortion or LGBT rights. He knew the decision was coming to strike down Roe and did squat. He could have expanded the court or threatened to do so, and he didn't. Roosevelt was having his agenda ruined by a right wing supreme court, and did threaten to expand it if they didn't knock it off... it worked. He's given lip service to women's rights but he has done very little. When Biden was vice-President under Obama they had a filibuster proof majority and they still refused to codify abortion rights.

Just because someone supports freedom doesn't mean they personally endorse an activity or behaviour. LGBT isn't allowed for Jews either and I still support their rights to do whatever they want. The reason is not because I'm pro-LGBT or think gay marriage is swell, it's because I don't believe in regulating other people. I've refused to go to a gay wedding because it's against my religion. If you are not harming anyone, do what you want. You cannot force people by law to be of your religion, period. If someone is not a Christian, or a Jew or whatever, then the rules and morality of our beliefs do not apply to them. What is so hard about this for some people to get through their skulls? Claiming "G-d want's this..." goes to number four...

Fourthly:

Unless you are claiming to be a prophet do not claim to know what Hashem does and doesn't support. He does not talk to any of us and is capable of handling his own affairs. He talks through a pillar of fire, or angels... things like that. There is no example in the Tanakh (or the New Testament that I'm aware of) where G-d ever gave people "a feeling" or talked to them inside their heads. When he speaks, you know it and it's not disputable.

I think you and I probably get our news stories from different sources. As much as I would love to respond to your lengthy angry column, I think in the interest of peace I will refrain. Your response seems very angry and honestly felt like an attack of some kind. I actually could give you examples and explain to you my points for the post I made, but based on the aggression you seem to respond with I believe that any answer I gave you would simply lead to more hostility. It is my interest to discuss and debate, not to start arguments or fights. So perhaps on other subjects we can have a healthy debate, but I don't believe this is one of those subjects. God bless.

[Michael37]

10 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

All laws are a form of morality from either one group or another.

Or lack of them. 

My studies have led me to arrive at the very conclusion you so elegantly state, @TrueFollowerOfChrist

[Questioning]

21 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Obviously there was an extensive law code for the nation of Israel in the Old testament, and I don't think most Christians would see any faults in the morality code that God gave. Most Christians would say that murder, theft, assault are wrong. Jesus certainly does not advocate going against the laws of man. Paul and Romans 13 says to obey the authorities. I think it's safe to say that Jesus made clear that things like theft, abortion, homosexuality, blasphemy, and idolatry are all grave crimes against God. I don't know what moral code you referring to, as Jesus didn't contradict anything in the Old testament. However even setting the Old testament aside, Paul gives numerous rules for the church in his writings, and since Paul was inspired by God to write his letters and especially since he says that he got all of his teachings directly from Jesus himself, Paul's writings have the same full force as jesus's words in the Gospels. But out of curiosity sake, I would be very interested to know what you mean by your morality falls in line with Jesus. That's a curious statement and I would love for you to expand on that.

The OT version of God was a wrathful, jealous, narcissistic, authoritarian God who had an eye for eye mentality.  And he had people stoned to death for various reasons, like violating the sabbath, being rebellious, and committing adultry.  He committed genocide with the flood, and after having the Israeli's  slaughter the caananites, he had them save the young virgins, who were divided among the Israeli men with no instructions for how the virgins were to be used.  And by the way, he violated his own 10 commandments in doing so, which I find extremely inconsistant.  Is this the part of the Bible you are looking to establish a Christian nations laws on?? 

I certainly hope your group has in mind basing laws on the core of Jesus teaching which he summarized in Matthew 22 when he was asked about the greatest commandment.  Love God, and neighbor as self.  But I believe your group is authority and power minded.    Not humanitarian like Jesus was.  

And for the record, I do not believe the Catholics should have attached the Jewish "Bible" to the teachings of Jesus.  Therefore do not believe the Bible is inerrant, which is probably what your whole faith is based on.  A whole other subject if you want to go there in another thread.  That is a subject I am more familiar with.

I don't want to answer for Slibhin, but I get my news from a variety of news sources, and agree with what she said about Israel and Biden.  If your news source is Fox, I can see where you are coming from.

[warrior12]

1 hour ago, Questioning said:

The OT version of God was a wrathful, jealous, narcissistic, authoritarian God who had an eye for eye mentality.  And he had people stoned to death for various reasons, like violating the sabbath, being rebellious, and committing adultry.  He committed genocide with the flood, and after having the Israeli's  slaughter the caananites, he had them save the young virgins, who were divided among the Israeli men with no instructions for how the virgins were to be used.  And by the way, he violated his own 10 commandments in doing so, which I find extremely inconsistant.  Is this the part of the Bible you are looking to establish a Christian nations laws on?? 

I certainly hope your group has in mind basing laws on the core of Jesus teaching which he summarized in Matthew 22 when he was asked about the greatest commandment.  Love God, and neighbor as self.  But I believe your group is authority and power minded.    Not humanitarian like Jesus was.  

And for the record, I do not believe the Catholics should have attached the Jewish "Bible" to the teachings of Jesus.  Therefore do not believe the Bible is inerrant, which is probably what your whole faith is based on.  A whole other subject if you want to go there in another thread.  That is a subject I am more familiar with.

I don't want to answer for Slibhin, but I get my news from a variety of news sources, and agree with what she said about Israel and Biden.  If your news source is Fox, I can see where you are coming from.

I hope you also read the following and the many others like it.

Isaiah 46:8

“Remember this, keep it in mind,
    take it to heart, you rebels.
⁹ Remember the former things, those of long ago;
    I am God, and there is no other;
    I am God, and there is none like me.
¹⁰ I make known the end from the beginning,
    from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
    and I will do all that I please.’

Edited March 25 by warrior12

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Questioning said:

Therefore do not believe the Bible is inerrant,

Hi @Questioning

Friendly word of advice:

If you pursue that line here you will be moved to the Outer Court as a non-conformist who disagrees with the Worthy Statement Of Faith as quoted below:

We believe that the 66 books of the Canon, from Genesis to Revelation are the exhaustive, inerrant and inspired word of God.

[Neighbor]

5 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Laws are always going to exist. People say you can't legislate morality, yet that's exactly what laws are.

Hi, Many laws have nothing to do with morality, but instead are rules of order. Systems for accomplishing what those in charge want accomplished, in the manner they want them to be done.

One can make immoral actions illegal for sure, but  no law will stop them from occurring, no matter how severe the punishment. Most laws pertaining to physical acts of immorality that are Biblical in principle are violated day and night, either in acts or in the thoughts of humans.

All are guilty. That of course is the heart of the reason behind the gospel of our Lord and savior Yeshua is it not? That we are separated, irreconcilably so, from God; yet God has through the willing sacrifice made by Yeshua reconciled that which is otherwise irreconcilable. His having already done so at the cross at Calvary.

Christians that fear persecutions have a greater (stronger) fear coming within them I am afraid, for it is coming.

Maranatha!

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

6 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Or lack of them. 

My studies have led me to arrive at the very conclusion you so elegantly state, @TrueFollowerOfChrist

Yes. I find it strange when people say Christians should not try to legislate morality. WHY NOT? The alternative is letting the godless legislate immorality. 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

5 hours ago, Questioning said:

The OT version of God was a wrathful, jealous, narcissistic, authoritarian God who had an eye for eye mentality.  And he had people stoned to death for various reasons, like violating the sabbath, being rebellious, and committing adultry.  He committed genocide with the flood, and after having the Israeli's  slaughter the caananites, he had them save the young virgins, who were divided among the Israeli men with no instructions for how the virgins were to be used.  And by the way, he violated his own 10 commandments in doing so, which I find extremely inconsistant.  Is this the part of the Bible you are looking to establish a Christian nations laws on?? 

I certainly hope your group has in mind basing laws on the core of Jesus teaching which he summarized in Matthew 22 when he was asked about the greatest commandment.  Love God, and neighbor as self.  But I believe your group is authority and power minded.    Not humanitarian like Jesus was.  

And for the record, I do not believe the Catholics should have attached the Jewish "Bible" to the teachings of Jesus.  Therefore do not believe the Bible is inerrant, which is probably what your whole faith is based on.  A whole other subject if you want to go there in another thread.  That is a subject I am more familiar with.

I don't want to answer for Slibhin, but I get my news from a variety of news sources, and agree with what she said about Israel and Biden.  If your news source is Fox, I can see where you are coming from.

You and I disagree on some things, and that's totally ok. I don't see the actions of God in the old testament as in any way wrong. I believe God is perfect and incapable of doing wrong. As God, he has the right to do with his creation as he wants. As Paul said, how can the clay say to the potter, why did you make me like this? God can do as he pleases and we have no right to argue with him on it. God showed mercy and love in the Old Testament. Remember, love your neighbor is in the Old Testament law before Jesus quoted it. The slaughter of the Canaanites by the Israelites was extremely just, especially when considering that they were horribly evil pagan people's who worshiped many false gods and even performed human sacrifices. When God told Israel to annihilate those countries, he was more than justified as they were horrible, evil, abominable Nations who only did evil in God's sight. The law of love as people claim Jesus head does not eliminate morality or the penalty for sin. Jesus told people not to sin and warned of judgment if they continued in sin. I actually do not believe in the inerrancy of scripture as I believe there are small textual inscribe all errors in the text. However I do not believe that any error has changed any teachings of scripture or had any actual impact on the Bible itself. I am certainly not Catholic and do not subscribe to their teachings. I do not watch Fox News, and do not get my news from either Fox or CNN. I certainly would love to see America as a fully Christian Nation where people have the right to live as they choose within God's laws. There is no one way to worship as I believe most Christian denominations are doing their best. Although the Old Testament ascribed capital punishment for 16 crimes I believe only murder should receive the death penalty today. However I do believe that abortion should be outlawed and homosexual acts should also be outlawed. I believe the Bible should be read in schools and that everyday should begin with prayer. I believe morality should be taught in schools. A Christian Nation would be more free than anything you can see in the world today. In a Christian Nation people have the right to disagree and debate. Everyone would not be forced to follow one denomination or one denominations interpretation of laws. But no case can be made that somehow atheists would have a more free society than Christians would. I would be happy to further discuss this with you if you have further questions or need clarification on anything I have said.