Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[RdJ]

7 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

No you don't.  You like approval by the old earth proponents.  That's why even though the most recent translation says "formless and void," you cling to discredited translations because they allow you to spew your heresy.

It sounds like he's right with the tohu wa bohu. That's why I accepted the GAP theory initially. It doesn't matter how you translate it. It just doesn't look like the other steps. On one hand yes if you read Job 38 it reads like oh how sweet, darkness as a swaddle band, creation of the earth, first the corner stone, then the water, then the dry land appeared, Peter the earth is made from water. But why is there darkness? Why is there chaos? Why is God creating an earth in the dark? Why not in the light because He is Light? And look they say that there were 2 big bangs before the earth came to be. One big bang of darkness later and dark energy tries to pull the universe apart and works against gravity. God did not create darkness in Genesis 1. He created the universe light and then satan rebelled and there came darkness. Then He created the earth in the darkness and said: Let there be light and called the light good and seperated it.

There just was no fall from satan after an initial creation on earth that was destroyed with dinosaurs and hominoids. That happened with Noah.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

Given the straightforward account in Genesis, there was a time before man was on the land,
that the dry land itself appeared: Genesis 1:9. This time no doubt included much shaking of the land as it came into place, I imagine rose up from the water, or perhaps it was earthquakes that broke it up and let some of the water go down beneath it as it formed, whatever the case, certainly the formation of the land itself would include earthquakes.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

28 minutes ago, RdJ said:

But why is there darkness?

I clothe the heavens with blackness, and make sackcloth their covering.
Isaiah 50:3

 

The devil and his henchmen have deceived the whole world concerning that darkness,
and the nature of the stars.

 

It cast down some of the host of the stars to the ground
and trampled on them. Daniel 8:10
He cast down the truth to the ground and practiced and prospered.
Daniel 8:12

Through his cunning he shall cause deceit to prosper in his hand
Daniel 8:25

the beast opened his mouth in blaspheme against God,
to blaspheme Gods name, and Gods tabernacle
and them that dwell beyond the sky.
Revelation 13:6

 

God made a wise plan first, the plan concerning Christ.
Then the first physical thing He made was water: Proverbs 8:23-24
 

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Now, the earth was without form and void
and darkness covered the face of the deep,
and the Spirit of God was hovering over the water

Genesis 1:1-2

 

 

 

 

 

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  FreeGrace said:

Seems you can't handle the truth.

Try me.  Say something true for once.

As a comedian, I'd suggest you keep your day job.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

As you ignore the actual experts who point out that Jeremiah was quoting Genesis for effect

Of course he was!  Obviously.  Jeremiah was warning of what would BECOME of the land by the besieging army, just as what DID BECOME of planet earth.  

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

that the land would be so completely destroyed it would be as before God began to fill the earth.

So you still think God's "creative abilities" ain't all that good, huh.  That He can't just simply speak a fully finished planet into existence.  Well, I reject such foolishness.

You had it right above about Jeremiah quoting Gen 1:2 for EFFECT.  He knew what was coming; the land would be "so completely destroyed".  Exactly!

But then, you blow it completely by still thinking that God's creative abilities BEGIN with something that looks like it's been totally destroyed.  You really take the cake.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Of course, no amount of proof will be good enough for you.

Oh, I'm very impressed with proof.  And you have once again proved how little respect you have for God's creative abilities.

KJV says that God created (bara) the earth and the earth wa tohu.

But Isa 45:18 says that God did NOT create (bara) the earth tohu.

And you still haven't woken up.  Or smelled the coffee.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

What I like is the truth.

No you don't.

There you go again, making wildly untrue claims, of which you know nothing.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You like approval by the old earth proponents.

And where am I getting this approval?   Are you feeling well?

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

That's why even though the most recent translation says "formless and void," you cling to discredited translations because they allow you to spew your heresy.

I've proved my view from Scripture, unlike yourself.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Clueless DOES exist in your mind.  You have the understanding of a stone.

Do all these insults you throw make you feel better about yourself?  

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

 You can't give even ONE example of an object that has no form.

Another lie.

Lies are what you post.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  I gave you a list.

even liquids take on the FORM of their container.  Ever heard of a puddle?  Does that have a form or not?

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Science is the study of the physical world.  Please show us how science explains things like the sun standing still in the sky or the dead coming back to life.  Show us the scientific explanation for the sudden formation of all living animals in a day.

What does any of this have to do with your very lousy translation of Gen 1:2?  Focus.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Another lie.  You said nothing was formless.

And nothing is, unless one uses the word in a COMPARATIVE SENSE only.  You STILL haven't proven what is formless as a state of being.  Keep trying.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

I'll give you 31 reasons.  Genesis 1:1-1: 31.  If you had a clue what it said, you would have never made that statement.

Wow.  What "proof".  Except you don't even believe what Moses wrote in Gen 1:2, which skewers everything that follows.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The shorter list would be of ones you understand.

OK, keep throwing your childish insults.  Doesn't matter.  I have the truth, you have KJV.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

They make these things they call books, and they are permanent records of things people publish.  Gap theory was first popularized by Thomas Chalmers in 1814.

So?  

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Hey, you DO know the definition of at least one word.  The Bible says there was a six day creation.  You claim otherwise.

Well, you are in error once again.  Ex 20:11 doesn't say "create".  It says "made".  But you don't know the difference, it seems.  Even though I've explained it over and over.

In the Hebrew, bara and asah are different words with different meanings.  

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Publish date 1997.  It's new age heresy.  Did you bother to read the publication date?  The Biblical cannon closed after the writing of the Revelation.  Any newer doctrine is heresy.

There is no "newer doctrine".  There is the literal Hebrew, written about 1400 BC.  Is that far enough back for you?

At least you admit WHY Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2.  He KNEW what was coming and he was warning the people of TOTAL DISASTER to the land.  Thank you for your (finally) honesty.

That is EXACTLY WHY Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2 in Jer 4:23.

The totally nutty thing is that you actually believe that when God created the earth in stages, the first stage looked EXACTLY like a total disaster.

I know for a FACT that God creates fully finished things by simply speaking them into existence.

He doesn't need or use "stages".  Humans do, of course.  

[RV_Wizard]

5 hours ago, RdJ said:

It sounds like he's right with the tohu wa bohu. That's why I accepted the GAP theory initially.

While 14% of translations, all of them recent, might support gap claims, 86% INCLUDING the most recent translation agree with the original translation.  The fact is, nearly all words have multiple meaning depending on the context used.  Until the the old earth crowd began to convince people the earth was old, the church accepted the Scriptures as written.  After all, there were no verses in the original text.  "Without form and void" is merely the original condition, as the oceans originally were barren of life, and the earth originally had no life.  Verses were added to make the text easier to read.  Like all doctrines that came after gospels, gap theory is a false believe based on a perversion of the Bible.  Islam also bases many of its lies on the truth of the Abrahamic traditions.  Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness, and other false religions are also Bible based.  That does not make them holy.

Other problems with modern age ruin/reconstruction theory:

It is inconsistent with God creating everything in six days, as Scripture states, and as God Himself said in Exodus 20:11.

It puts death, disease, and suffering before the Fall, contrary to Scripture.  Romans 5:12 says, “Therefore, just as through one man [Adam] sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.” From this we understand that there could not have been human sin or death before Adam.

Genesis 1:29–30 teaches us that animals and man were originally created to eat plants, which is consistent with God’s description of His creation as “very good.” But how could a fossil record, which gives evidence of disease, violence, death, and decay (fossils have been found of animals apparently fighting and certainly eating each other), be described as “very good”? For this to be true, the death of billions of animals (and many humans) as seen in the fossil record must have occurred after Adam’s sin.

The gap theory is logically inconsistent because it explains away what it is supposed to accommodate—supposed evidence for an old earth.  While the gap theorist may think Lucifer’s flood solves the problem of life before God’s creation recorded in Genesis 1:2 and following, it actually removes the reason for the theory in the first place. If all, or most, of the sediments and fossils were produced quickly in one massive worldwide Lucifer’s flood, then the main evidence that the earth is extremely old no longer exists, because the age of the earth is based on the assumed slow formation of earth’s sediments.

The gap theory does away with the evidence for the historical event of the global Flood.  If the fossil record was formed by Lucifer’s flood, then what did the global Flood of Noah’s day do?

The gap theory fails to accommodate standard uniformitarian geology with its long ages.

The gap theory undermines the gospel at its foundations.  By accepting an ancient age for the earth (based on the standard uniformitarian interpretation of the geologic column), gap theorists leave the evolutionary system intact (which by their own assumptions they oppose).  Even worse, they must also theorize that Romans 5:12 and Genesis 3:3 refer only to spiritual death. But this contradicts other scriptures, such as 1 Corinthians 15 and Genesis 3:22–23. These passages tell us that Adam’s sin led to physical death, as well as spiritual death. In 1 Corinthians 15 the death of the Last Adam (the Lord Jesus Christ) is compared with the death of the first Adam. Jesus suffered physical death for man’s sin, because Adam, the first man, died physically because of sin.

In cursing man with physical death, God also provided a way to redeem man through the person of His Son Jesus Christ, who suffered the curse of death on the Cross for us. To believe there was death before Adam’s sin destroys the basis of the Christian message.

According to Exodus 20:11, God “made” (asah) the heavens and the earth and everything in them in six days. If God made everything in six days, then there is clearly no room for a gap. To avoid this clear scriptural testimony against any gap, gap theorists have alleged that asah does not mean “to create,” but “to form” or even “re-form.” They claim that Exodus 20:11 refers not to six days of creation but to six days of re-forming a ruined world.  The fact is that the words bara and asah are often used interchangeably in the Old Testament; indeed, in some places they are used in synonymous parallelism (e.g., Genesis 1:26–27, 2:4; Exodus 34:10; Isaiah 41:20, 43:7).  Applying this conclusion to Exodus 20:11, 31:17, and Nehemiah 9:6, we see that Scripture teaches that God created the universe (everything) in six days, as outlined in Genesis 1.

Theologians call the form of use of tohu and/or bohu in Isaiah 34:11 and Jeremiah 4:23 a “verbal allusion.” These passages on judgment allude to the formless and empty earth at the beginning of creation to suggest the extent of God’s judgment to come. God’s judgment will be so complete that the result will be like the earth before it was formed and filled—formless and empty. This does not imply that the state of the creation in Genesis 1:2 was arrived at by some sort of judgment or destruction as imagined by gappists.

source

Edited April 21 by RV_Wizard

[RV_Wizard]

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  What was it like, one second after creation?  

There was no light, and thus no heat.  There were no stars in the sky.  The earth was alone in space.  It was "without form and void."  That could mean that it began as a gaseous state, then cooled and formed into liquid, and then dry land arose.  It could just mean that it was barren of life.  This was, of course a temporary condition, because then God created light.  Light shone on the earth.  With light comes heat.

The proposed gap comes between verse one and verse two, so there was only darkness when the make believe gap took place.  The planet was covered with water.  Some say it was because of "Lucifer's Flood;" as if Lucifer had the authority and ability to destroy God's creation.  Gap proponents have never been able to explain how life could have come about, flourished and been destroyed in total darkness with no heat from any source but geothermal.  Picture life on Neptune, only more extreme because Neptune still gets some light and heat from the sun.

How, then, did anything exist?  

 

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  RdJ said:

It sounds like he's right with the tohu wa bohu. That's why I accepted the GAP theory initially.

While 14% of translations, all of them recent, might support gap claims, 86% INCLUDING the most recent translation agree with the original translation.

Unlike you, RdJ is an objective and open minded person who HEARS the facts and SEES the evidence.  

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  The fact is, nearly all words have multiple meaning depending on the context used.

Believing that words that are used to describe total disaster on the land can also be used to describe original creation is worse than absurd.  It is insanity.

"tohu wabohu" occur together only 3 times in the OT.  There is nothing in Gen 1 that helps us English speakers understand what is being described, but in the other 2 passages, we get a very clear picture of coming DISASTER to the land.  That is precisely WHY Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2 and used those same 2 words to describe what was coming to the land.  He understood Moses perfectly, which is WHY he quoted from Gen 1:2.  

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Until the the old earth crowd began to convince people the earth was old

Moses wasn't trying to do anything but writing down what the Holy Spirit influenced him to.  And he wrote down that the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland, just like what happened in Jer 4 and Isa 34.  

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

the church accepted the Scriptures as written.

Correction.  "as TRANSLATED".  But difference.  Totally ignoring the meaning of the Hebrew.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  After all, there were no verses in the original text. 

We're not talking verses but Hebrew words and how they are used in the OT.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

"Without form and void" is merely the original condition

To think that God created the earth in steps, and the first step was so LOUSY that Jeremiah quoted from Moses to describe what was coming to Israel is the height of ignorance.

God speaks finished products into existence.  It's no sweat for Him.  Why you think He created the earth in steps is nonsense.  Esp thinking that "uninhabitable wasteland" was His initial step.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

It is inconsistent with God creating everything in six days, as Scripture states, and as God Himself said in Exodus 20:11.

Why are you trying to hard to demonstrate your denseness?  Creation is 'bara' and 'made' is asah.

There are NO verses that say that God created everything in 6 days.  bara is in Gen 1:1 and NOT in Ex 20:11.  How many times have I told you that?  

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

It puts death, disease, and suffering before the Fall, contrary to Scripture.

No, it allows for whatever was on earth before it became an uninhabitable wasteland, but your bias won't allow you to grasp any of this.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Romans 5:12 says, “Therefore, just as through one man [Adam] sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.” From this we understand that there could not have been human sin or death before Adam.

There was no death, disease or suffering AFTER God restored the earth for man's use, until the Fall.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The gap theory is logically inconsistent because it explains away what it is supposed to accommodate—supposed evidence for an old earth.

That is just weird.  The time gap (no theory) accepts however old earth has been measured to be.

There is no "explaining away".  That's on the YEC side.  They must explain away the huge contradiction between the KJV of Gen 1:1,2 with Isa 45:18.

Proper understanding of "tohu wabohu" removes ALL contradiction.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  While the gap theorist may think Lucifer’s flood solves the problem of life before God’s creation recorded in Genesis 1:2 and following, it actually removes the reason for the theory in the first place. If all, or most, of the sediments and fossils were produced quickly in one massive worldwide Lucifer’s flood, then the main evidence that the earth is extremely old no longer exists, because the age of the earth is based on the assumed slow formation of earth’s sediments.

Until you explain what this so-called "Lucifer's flood" is and where you read about it, I cannot answer any questions about it.  The Bible makes no mention of such a thing.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The gap theory does away with the evidence for the historical event of the global Flood.  If the fossil record was formed by Lucifer’s flood, then what did the global Flood of Noah’s day do?

Wrong again.  The Bible clearly describes a global flood.  

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The gap theory fails to accommodate standard uniformitarian geology with its long ages.

You're going to have to explain that, since what you say false on its face.  You need to prove that it doesn't.  The time gap is about long ages.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The gap theory undermines the gospel at its foundations.

Oh, that's hilarious.  The gap in time has nothing to do with the gospel.  Why do you think it does?

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  By accepting an ancient age for the earth (based on the standard uniformitarian interpretation of the geologic column), gap theorists leave the evolutionary system intact (which by their own assumptions they oppose).

You're just confused.  Very confused.  While evolution demands an old earth, an old earth doesn't need evolution at all.  But it seems you have conflated the two, without warrant.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Even worse, they must also theorize that Romans 5:12 and Genesis 3:3 refer only to spiritual death.

No, I don't.  Please quit talking about 'they'.  I don't defend anyone.  I defend the truth found in Scripture.  Deal with me, if you're not afraid to.

I strongly disagree with all "gap theorists" who don't defend the meaning of "tohu wabohu".  Whatever else "they" may argue is useless.

If you want to refute ME, then deal with what I say, and leave out all the "they's" out there.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

But this contradicts other scriptures, such as 1 Corinthians 15 and Genesis 3:22–23. These passages tell us that Adam’s sin led to physical death, as well as spiritual death.

And I totally agree.  In fact, in the original Hebrew, there are 2 deaths mentioned in 3:27.

"in the DAY that you eat of it, DYING, you shall DIE".  That's the literal Hebrew.  The phrase "in the day" specifically refers to the day they would eat the fruit.

"dying" refers to the process of physical death, which began on that day.

"die" refers to the spiritual death that they experienced on that day.  They became separated from God, as proven by their hiding when the Lord came for a visit in the cool of the evening.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

In 1 Corinthians 15 the death of the Last Adam (the Lord Jesus Christ) is compared with the death of the first Adam. Jesus suffered physical death for man’s sin, because Adam, the first man, died physically because of sin.

Not quite.  When the Bible speaks of Christ's death, it refers to His own spiritual death.  Why did Jesus scream from the cross, "My God, My God, why have YOU forsaken Me?"  While He was bearing the penalty for sin, He was separated from God the Father and God the Spirit.  He was spiritually dead, and physically alive.

When He finished bearing the sins of the world, what did He say?  "It is finished". Or 'tetelastai' in the Greek.  What does it mean?  "Paid in FULL".  How could Jesus say that if His physical death was necessary to pay for the sins of man?  He couldn't.  His physical death was by His own accord.  He actually dismissed His spirit.  Most translations of John 19:30 have "gave up His spirit", one says "handed over the spirit", others say yielded up/handed over the spirit.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

In cursing man with physical death, God also provided a way to redeem man through the person of His Son Jesus Christ, who suffered the curse of death on the Cross for us. To believe there was death before Adam’s sin destroys the basis of the Christian message.

Not when one realizes that NOTHING that occurred before the earth became a wasteland has any relevance to man's time on earth.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

According to Exodus 20:11, God “made” (asah) the heavens and the earth and everything in them in six days.

And that's the point.  Gen 1:1 said that God created (bara) the heavens and earth.  But you seem to NOT WANT TO understand the difference.

The difference between us is that I'm a student of the WORD and you are only interested in a poorly worded translation of the Word.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

If God made everything in six days, then there is clearly no room for a gap.

Making everything in 6 days isn't creation.  It's a 6 day restoration.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

To avoid this clear scriptural testimony against any gap, gap theorists have alleged that asah does not mean “to create,” but “to form” or even “re-form.” They claim that Exodus 20:11 refers not to six days of creation but to six days of re-forming a ruined world. 

All this is proven by how "tohu wabohu" is used in Jer and Isa.  And REFUTES the YEC.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The fact is that the words bara and asah are often used interchangeably in the Old Testament; indeed, in some places they are used in synonymous parallelism (e.g., Genesis 1:26–27

I'm going to stop you right here.  Let's look at these 2 verses again:

26 - Then God said, “Let us make (asah) mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created (bara) mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created (bara)them; male and female he created  (bara) them.

These are NOT "interchangeable" as you presume.  Gen 2:7 proves that they are not the same.

Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

I've color coded words in 2:7 to match what they refer to back in 1:26 and 27.

In v.26 there is "asah", to make.  Red.  Just like the red words in 2:7, "God formed man from dust".  God MADE man from dust.  He made something from something.

Then, in v27 we have bara, which means to create.  And in 2:7 the blue words refer to what God CREATED out of nothing.  The "breath of life" wasn't created out of something, like the body of Adam.  

The body of Adam was made (asah).  The SOUL of Adam was created.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

, 2:4; Exodus 34:10; Isaiah 41:20, 43:7).  Applying this conclusion to Exodus 20:11, 31:17, and Nehemiah 9:6, we see that Scripture teaches that God created the universe (everything) in six days, as outlined in Genesis 1.

You keep making that silly mistake about Ex 20:11.  It doesn't say God CREATED the universe in 6 days.  It says God MADE everything in 6 days.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Theologians call the form of use of tohu and/or bohu in Isaiah 34:11 and Jeremiah 4:23 a “verbal allusion.” These passages on judgment allude to the formless and empty earth at the beginning of creation to suggest the extent of God’s judgment to come.

Those kind of theologicans are delusional.  What garbage.  Tohu wabohu are descriptors of a state of being of land.  In Gen 1:2 the state of the earth.  In Jer 4:23 and isa 34:11, the state of the land AFTER total disaster hits.  Those "theologians" probably worship at the same young earth altar as you do.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

God’s judgment will be so complete that the result will be like the earth before it was formed and filled—formless and empty.

Pure nonsense.  Both Jeremiah and Isaiah were describing coming DISASTER to the land.

To say that God's first stage or step in creating earth is comparable to disaster is insane.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

This does not imply that the state of the creation in Genesis 1:2 was arrived at by some sort of judgment or destruction as imagined by gappists.

source

I've NEVER even suggested that "tohu wabohu" infers judgment.  The words simply DESCRIBE a state of being, which is an uninhabitable wasteland.  Period.

You need to quit reading about what so-called gap theorists say.  I'm not one of them.  If you want to be honest, deal only with what I've presented.

I have a book by a believer who believes in the nutty "day-age" gap theory.  Total nonsense.  

Just deal with what I have presented.  You are wasting your time telling me what others claim.  I don't care.  I know what the Bible says.  Prove ME wrong, if you can.

But, I've already proven YOU wrong.  Over and over.

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  What was it like, one second after creation?

Since everything God creates is good, the heavens and earth were complete and good.  Psa 33:6,9

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

There was no light, and thus no heat.  There were no stars in the sky.  The earth was alone in space.  It was "without form and void."  That could mean that it began as a gaseous state, then cooled and formed into liquid, and then dry land arose.  It could just mean that it was barren of life.  This was, of course a temporary condition, because then God created light.  Light shone on the earth.  With light comes heat.

The only "gaseous state" is all the hot air coming out of your posts.  lol

Everything you've posted above is the state of being of the earth AFTER it became an uninhabitable wasteland.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The proposed gap comes between verse one and verse two, so there was only darkness when the make believe gap took place.

You're free to your own machinations, but is is obvious to open minded and objective people that for the earth to become an uninhabitable wasteland, would take some time.  No doubt.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

How, then, did anything exist?  

Since God hasn't given man ANY details about what happened BEFORE "tohu wabohu" such questions are a waste of time and frivolous.

All man needs to know is the state of being before He restored the earth for man's use.  Nothing before that is relevant to man's existence on earth.

[RV_Wizard]

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Everything you've posted above is the state of being of the earth AFTER it became an uninhabitable wasteland.

So answer the question.  What was it before?

There was no light, no sun, no moon and no stars.  There was no external source of heat.  The earth was covered with water and dry land had not appeared yet.  How did fish and animals populate the earth when they hadn't been created yet?  How did fossils get into the ground when there was no dry land?  You pre-suppose another existence yet there is no scenario in which anything could have lived.  There were no trees, so no oxygen to breath.  If this mythical pre-existence did somehow exist, the tectonic shifts that brought dry land to the surface would have destroyed the very fossil record you're making this up to explain.

The fact is, ruin/reconstruction theory is nothing more than a modern day heresy.  The interpretations you cite and claim are "original Hebrew" are all recent; many out of the 1970's.  Then you have no answer why a much more modern version with access to all the information translates Genesis 1:2 as "without form and void."  You pick and choose the translations you like and declare that all the others are wrong.  

Galatians 1:8-9 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Does a belief in the gap theory mean no one understood the biblical account of creation until secular geologists figured it out for us?

Why does the Bible spend three chapters teaching about the Genesis Flood and none about the gap flood?

Did God’s judgment during the gap also destroy the sun, moon and stars? If not, then why did God have to create them again on day 4 of the “re-creation”?

Proponents of the gap theory, as well as many other supporters of long ages, claim they do not believe in evolution. However, long ages (billions of years) is the very foundation for evolution. The Bible is not dependent on billions of years. It allows for everything in a span of about 6,000 years. In addition, nowhere in the Bible is there any account of billions of years.

Romans 5:12 teaches that “…through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin…). However, the gap theory allows for death, disease and struggle before sin. Since the fossil record is claimed to be the result of what happened during the gap this would include all the animal fossils and Neanderthals which have been confirmed to be fully human. This means the gap theory includes animal and human death before sin. Does this mean Romans 5:12 is wrong?

If the Bible is incorrect concerning how and when sin and death entered the world, why should anyone believe what it says about how sin and death can be remedied through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 Is God’s Word complete or should we allow for the discovery of new scientific knowledge (“new revealed knowledge”) to be inserted into Scripture?

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[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  FreeGrace said:

Everything you've posted above is the state of being of the earth AFTER it became an uninhabitable wasteland.

So answer the question.  What was it before?

How many times have I already told you:  God didn't give us any details.  Why hasn't that sunk into your skull?  

And why can't you understand that Jer 4 is the context to understand how "tohu wabohu" is used;  to describe the total destruction of the land.  Same for Isa 34:11.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

There was no light, no sun, no moon and no stars.  There was no external source of heat.  The earth was covered with water and dry land had not appeared yet.  How did fish and animals populate the earth when they hadn't been created yet?  How did fossils get into the ground when there was no dry land?  You pre-suppose another existence yet there is no scenario in which anything could have lived.  There were no trees, so no oxygen to breath.  If this mythical pre-existence did somehow exist, the tectonic shifts that brought dry land to the surface would have destroyed the very fossil record you're making this up to explain.

So you are going to apply a lot of presuppositions about earth MORE than simply what the Bible says?  Rather odd.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The fact is, ruin/reconstruction theory is nothing more than a modern day heresy. 

I couldn't care less what you think of it and call it.  The Hebrew "tohu wabohu" has been shown HOW they are used together;  they describe the total destruction of land.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The interpretations you cite and claim are "original Hebrew" are all recent; many out of the 1970's.  Then you have no answer why a much more modern version with access to all the information translates Genesis 1:2 as "without form and void."  You pick and choose the translations you like and declare that all the others are wrong.

You are just dishonest.  By citing my source; biblehub.com, anyone and everyone is free to use the site to see how EVERY translation handles "tohu" in all 10 verses, and in the 2 passages where "tohu wabohu" describes total destruction of land.

So your claim about my picking and choosing is bogus.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Galatians 1:8-9 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Why do you think the gospel is synonymous with the age of earth?  

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

The destructive heresy here is young earth.  Satan has deceived many evangelicals into thinking the earth is extremely young.  All to the laughter of scientists who have measured many things in the universe and can prove the universe/earth is much much older.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Does a belief in the gap theory mean no one understood the biblical account of creation until secular geologists figured it out for us?

Secular geologists have nothing to do with understanding Hebrew and what "tohu wabohu" means and how they are used.  But you love silly questions.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Why does the Bible spend three chapters teaching about the Genesis Flood and none about the gap flood?

What is this "gap flood" that you mention?  And where is your explanation of that other flood you mentioned that I've never heard of?

Or, do you just love to make up stuff?

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Did God’s judgment during the gap also destroy the sun, moon and stars? If not, then why did God have to create them again on day 4 of the “re-creation”?

Seems you just can't comprehend plain English.  God gave no details in Genesis regarding who, how, or why the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland.

But you will learn all about it in eternity.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Proponents of the gap theory, as well as many other supporters of long ages, claim they do not believe in evolution. However, long ages (billions of years) is the very foundation for evolution.

So, is this an indictment or something?  What folly.  Evolution demands an old earth, but an old earth, as presented in the Bible has NO NEED for evolution.

It seems the YEC are simply incapable of understanding the difference.

Gen 1:1 is original creation of the universe/earth.  By God Himself.  how does that fit in with evolution?  It doesn't.

Gen 1:2 informs us that the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland, but no details.  And God began the process of restoration.  How does that fit in with evolution?  It doesn't.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The Bible is not dependent on billions of years.

God's Word isn't dependent on anything.  But you should believe what it teaches.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

It allows for everything in a span of about 6,000 years.

You simply have no clue.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

In addition, nowhere in the Bible is there any account of billions of years.

Once again, I must remind you that God gave no details, so why would there be any such accounting?  

I guess you're just made at God for leaving out all details.

But, don't despair.  He gave us Jeremiah 4 and Isa 34 where it is crystal clear what "tohu wabohu" describes.  So we can understand Gen 1:2.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Romans 5:12 teaches that “…through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin…). However, the gap theory allows for death, disease and struggle before sin. Since the fossil record is claimed to be the result of what happened during the gap this would include all the animal fossils and Neanderthals which have been confirmed to be fully human. This means the gap theory includes animal and human death before sin. Does this mean Romans 5:12 is wrong?

How many times do you need repetition?  Are you having difficulties remembering what you've been told?

Romans 5 only deals with the time since man was on earth.  Meaning, no death or disease from the time Adam was created until he rebelled.

Romans 5 does not refer to anything BEFORE the restoration.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

If the Bible is incorrect concerning how and when sin and death entered the world, why should anyone believe what it says about how sin and death can be remedied through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Your comments are getting pretty pathetic.  The Bible is correct.  It's you and your YEC cohorts who don't believe the Bible.

Since God didn't give any details about why the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland, there is nothing in the rest of the Bible that would refer to what happened BEFORE the earth became a wasteland.  That should be obvious.  It is obvious to open minded and objective people.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Is God’s Word complete or should we allow for the discovery of new scientific knowledge (“new revealed knowledge”) to be inserted into Scripture?

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Of course God's Word is complete.  And what would "new scientific information" have to do with anything?

Again, your ridiculous questions are appalling.  You should know better, but your bias has blinded you to objective thought.  

All you do is keep repeating your very silly questions.