Two condemnations

[EddieM]

I have intentionally made the topic rather vague to bring out the two aspects of condemnation. There are two, distinct condemnations mentioned in Scripture. The first condemnation is called 'positional' condemnation. This is given to each person born into the world. In other words, it is the condemnation of being "in Adam." See Romans 5 for the contrast between Christ and Adam's positional truth. God condemns each person who enters this world with positional condemnation (i.e., in Adam). With this positional condemnation, we are immediately born qualified to be the recipients of God's grace and mercy. This is illustrated in Rom 11.32.

The other condemnation is 'eternal' condemnation. This is what happens when a person rejects Christ as Savior, see Matt 12.37. A person is eternally condemned by rejecting Jesus as Savior. It is by his words that he is condemned. The important thing to remember is nobody is born eternally condemned, only positional condemnation. As an illustration of this, see 2 Sam 12. David's new born child died and went to Paradise. This is why David says he will see his son again, because there is no basic for the child's eternal condemnation, only positional condemnation.

Another important point to bring out is that unbelievers are not eternally condemned for their personal sins. All sins were paid for by Christ on the Cross. That is why the gospel is the good news to unbelievers. The issue is no longer sin, but a Son. Go to any judgment passage for believers or unbelievers, you will not see the word sin mentioned. For the believer, he goes to the Rewards Ceremony (mistranslated Judgment Seat of Christ) after being rewarded for his works. For the unbeliever, he goes to the Lake of Fire based on his works (his works will not get him into heaven). Not by works of righteousness which we have done...

[Mihrof]

Hi EddieM,

thank you for this post, I have actually been thinking about this. If you don't mind, I would like to ask some questions.

1. 2 Sam 12 doesn't seem to suggest the child is in Heaven, it's like saying 'gathered to his people', which could merely mean death. Do you have any other bible reference to your opinion on this topic?

2. For argument's sake, if we are all born sinful (Romans 5), how can people with intellectual disabilities, or remote tribal people who never heard of the Gospel or unborn babies be condemned when they had never willingly rebelled against God? 

3. Please let me know if you think this thinking is questionable. Romans 5 suggests sin entered the world because of Adam, and Adam's action (using his free will given by God to rebel against God) is inherited by us just as a father teaches other things to his children. It is the choosing to rebel against God willingly that condemned us not because we are all descendants of Adam. Because Ezekiel 18:20 tells us, “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.” This verse clearly shows that punishment for one’s sins is borne by that person. This thinking will solve the question in my second point. 

Any input from anyone is much appreciated.

 

[RV_Wizard]

On 10/21/2024 at 10:24 PM, EddieM said:

Another important point to bring out is that unbelievers are not eternally condemned for their personal sins. All sins were paid for by Christ on the Cross.

The sins of the unbeliever are NOT paid for because they do not accept Christ as their savior.  In Revelation 21:8 some of these sins are listed specifically.  "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

[EddieM]

1. 2 Sam 12 doesn't seem to suggest the child is in Heaven, it's like saying 'gathered to his people', which could merely mean death. Do you have any other bible reference to your opinion on this topic?

Think of David. He is a redeemed man. He says that when he dies, he will go to the place of believers, right? After death in the OT, when you died, you either went to Sheol (non redeemed) or Paradise (redeemed). David is most assuredly going to Paradise. That is where he said he will see his son again. This indicates that babies go to the place called Paradise, which is where the redeemed go upon death.

2. For argument's sake, if we are all born sinful (Romans 5), how can people with intellectual disabilities, or remote tribal people who never heard of the Gospel or unborn babies be condemned when they had never willingly rebelled against God? 

^{Romans 1. 18} The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, ¹⁹ since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. ²⁰ For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

²¹ For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. ²² Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools ²³ and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Here we see that the remote Tribal people... God's existence is "plain to them." There is no such thing as a genuine atheist; they know God exists. But they also know more than God exists, they know they are accountable to him, that he has a divine nature.

The intellectual disabilities and babies all go to heaven because the only thing that can eternally condemn them is rejecting God's offer of salvation, neither of which these two categories of people can do.

3. Please let me know if you think this thinking is questionable. Romans 5 suggests sin entered the world because of Adam, and Adam's action (using his free will given by God to rebel against God) is inherited by us just as a father teaches other things to his children. It is the choosing to rebel against God willingly that condemned us not because we are all descendants of Adam. Because Ezekiel 18:20 tells us, “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.” This verse clearly shows that punishment for one’s sins is borne by that person. This thinking will solve the question in my second point. 

Something I discovered recently is in Gen 3. All the consequences of Adam and Eve's sin were temporary. Their consequences were not eternal, but ceased at physical death. Those in Adam do not go to hell because they are in Adam. Those who willfully reject the revelation God has made known to them are eternally condemned. In Adam only deals with this life, not heaven.

Finally, look at 2 Peter 2.1, here we see that Christ bought/redeemed the unbelievers. You might ask, if they are redeemed, why don't they go to heaven, because one must accept God's offer of salvation to go to heaven. The sins of all humanity were paid for by Christ. Now the unbeliever is free to accept or reject Christ.

[EddieM]

The sins of the unbeliever are NOT paid for because they do not accept Christ as their savior.  In Revelation 21:8 some of these sins are listed specifically.  "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

In fact the unbelievers sins are all paid for. Christ didn't pay for the sins of mankind potentially, but actually. Read this verse by 2nd Peter 2.1:

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Here you see that these unbelievers were bought/redeemed by the work of Christ on the cross. There is no contingencies or limits to Christ's redemptive death. That Christ paid for their sins is what the Gospel is all about, it is "good news." The only way a person can be condemned to the Lake of Fire is by rejecting God's offer of salvation. The fact that Christ paid for all sins, is the reason we are all born candidates for divine grace and mercy. See Rm 11:32 also. There are no eternal consequence for being "in Adam." See both Gen 2 and Rom 5.

Finally, you will never read the word "sins" at any judgment. No sins are mentioned at the Judgment seat of Christ or the Great White Throne.