What did Jesus Teach about Tithing to Christians ?

[Floatingaxe]

You have still not shown any scriptural support for your position. If a christian is required to tithe, then surely you would be able to produce scripture which says so.

Sure I have---you just don't like it. You must show us scripture that says tithing is abolished.

What other reason is there to desire wealth? The Bible certainly does not teach us to desire wealth.

No one is saying anything about desiring wealth. That is your assumption.

Oh, I see, we are supposed to want wealth so we can give it to others. But where does it say in the Bible that we are not supposed to experience hardship? This is where your doctrine is really twisted, because the Bible doesn't tell us that. It tells us the exact opposite.

To have any ministry at all we need money. Money isn't bad. People are.

Hardship occurs to everyone at one time or another and in one area of life or another. No one is saying that we are never to experience trouble. We have victory over it in Jesus Christ.

Why do you read into things and manipulate what people say? That is so lacking in integrity--and twisted in its own right.

[Fez]

That is ridiculous. God is our supplier and He gives liberally. That is the experience of every strong believer I know...and I know hundreds, if not thousands. The word of God is rich with God's great goodness of provision to those in dire need!!

2 Kings 4 speaks for me.

That is an insult. And it is exactly what I told you before, and you called it a false accusation. You are now saying, directly, that Christians who are poor are bad Christians. You have, in fact, just added another flaw to their walk with Christ. Let's examine the list of flaws we have so far:

A) Any Christian who is poor, materially, is in bondage.

B) Any Christian who is poor, materially, doesn't have enough faith.

C) Any Christian who is poor, materially, isn't a strong believer.

You are drawing a distinct dividing line between people and classifying them. On one side, there are poor Christians, who just don't have it together, and then on the other side, there are rich Christians who have got it all goin' on because they've got stuff. In your system, spiritual wealth counts for nothing. In God's economy, spiritual wealth counts for everything, and material wealth is meaningless. It isn't hard to figure out which scenario is wrong.

Candice.... Yes i know it was not you spouting this skewed and dangerous doctrine

Cobalt...... I agree with you

What is being said here is prosperity gospel at it's worst and is about as un-scriptural as one can get.

The millions of people born into poverty through no fault of their own, who love Jesus with a child like faith, who are doing great works in His name, many dying for their beliefs are all in bondage and have no faith or a weak faith?

Again, utter nonsense and un-scriptural and wrong and judgmental.

Where does this stuff come from?

Words fail me......

[Fez]

Job 36:11 If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.

Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Now being poor does not mean you lack faith................. If though after having trouble meeting your needs year, after year, after year and your a Christian....... According to the scripture I posted above, your doing something wrong..... You need to fix it.

Be blessed.

Again, nonsense!

Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

The thousands of rural people, poor in Western eyes, that I have come into contact with, and work with, in one of the poorest countries in the world do "eat the good of the land". They plant it, tend it and eat it. And they thank the Lord for it. They don't buy it at the local fast food joint.

And what about the good people on this board, who hold down three jobs, fight daily to feed their children, send them to school, pay bills, etc, but are obviously His from the posts they make, and the prayers they pray.

You are preaching prosperity gospel.

You denigrate every person who in faith struggles to make ends meet.

You are wrong.

"You need to fix it".

[Sevenseas]

By the way, I did NOT suggest poverty is a sin as Cobalt correctly stated to you. I was being slightly sarcastic based on your suggestion that she might be poor because she wasn't a Christian who tithe to a church.

Poverty is just another bondage.

Are you for real? Honestly? Did Jesus die to break the bondage of poverty?

Sorry don't often do this...

RUBBISH, you do not know, nor have the slightest idea what you are talking about.

I and my brother and his family have spent many years of our lives and funds, (call it tithing or whatever you wish), establishing a mission in Mozambique. (look up Zavora on Google earth and I will point out what we have had a hand in building, including a house that is open for use by anyone doing outreach from any church that relates to us). We have braved malaria, land mines, hijacking, robbery, dust, flies, no water to bath and just enough to drink, eaten half raw chicken and cassava porridge in dusty villages, etc to see this work through.

We do it because we love the people of Zavora and they us. (they gave us the land, which is a very big deal and involves dozens of meetings, parties, and a pile of African red tape), oh, and two goats, which is like someone giving you a new car?.

Now for the poor people who live in reed houses the size of your bathroom (they don't need bigger, if they are not working the fields they are sleeping).

Some walk 5 hours every Sunday to church, and 5 hours back. Some we sometimes fetch on a three hour trip where there are literally no roads, just bush (and one prays, no left over land mines, of which there are millions in Mozambique).

In bondage? Man these people ROCK! They love the Lord with a faith that astounds me. Don't see many of us walking 5 hours to church.

They are poor by western standards, but in other ways they are the most free people I have the pleasure of learning from. Their faith and their love, and their sense of community is amazing.

DON'T tell me poverty is bondage. In your comfortable, doctor down the block, convenience store round the corner, bus on every street world it might look like bondage.

They are FREE, and they worship Jesus like no other. And my heart burns to get back there, 13 hour drive through dangerous roads with the chance encounter of an angry elephant, or a suicidal bus driver round every corner notwithstanding, every second of every day.

Here endeth the rant....

Wow. Thank you for posting this Fez. It really touched my heart. I need to stop complaining. God bless you and your family. See, we have so much over here

that we think it is our right to have more. It makes the words of Jesus to the rich man even more real.

[Sevenseas]

"When one is poor, she has no say in public, she feels inferior. She has no food, so there is famine in her house; no clothing, and no progress in her family." — a woman from Uganda

"For a poor person everything is terrible - illness, humiliation, shame. We are cripples; we are afraid of everything; we depend on everyone. No one needs us. We are like garbage that everyone wants to get rid of." — a blind woman from Tiraspol, Moldova

Jesus elevates people out of their poverty both spiritually, by His great gift of salvation and the peace of mind that comes with that, and materially, meeting all needs with some left over to give, as good stewards.

Fez I hope you see it's not me saying poverty is bondage, but FA. Jesus death for us, and our love for Him and His Word, does over time, change our stinking thinking so that we become content with our circumstances and that bondage to circumstances is gone. But it's not the case that He always changes our circumstances, usually our perspective.

FA, you are really insulting to those great people who have faith and are not materially blessed.

That is ridiculous. God is our supplier and He gives liberally. That is the experience of every strong believer I know...and I know hundreds, if not thousands. The word of God is rich with God's great goodness of provision to those in dire need!!

2 Kings 4 speaks for me.

Exaggerate much?

[Floatingaxe]

Taylor30:

Jesus was poor

Jesus was what? What translation are you reading? The man got tax money our of the mouth of a fish, feed 5,000 people with just a few fish and bread. Had 30,000 thousand dollars worth of perfume (Year wages) on his feet. They fought over his extremely nice cloths when he died. They tried to capture him and make him a King. Judas carried the bag of money which they constantly handed money to the poor. Poor people don't do any of those things today. How do you consider this poor Taylor30?

Are you extremely wealthy? and the Lord's living condition just seems poor to you?

Cobalt1595:

Paul was not healed of his thorn in the flesh or his bad eyesight. Timothy was not healed of his bad stomach. So obviously, everyone is not healed of ailments. You've never dealt with this point.

I'll deal with it Cobalt.........................

Bad eyesight? As in the scripture in Galatians that You would have gladly given your eyes to me?

What could have happened to Paul?

Do you believe that in some parts of the Word it's possible to be persecuted for what you believe?

Why was Paul with the Galations to begin with? What happened to Paul?

What did the expression Give me your eyes mean at the time of Paul's Writing? Did Jesus ever mention the same expression before?

Thorn in flesh:

If Paul had a thorn in the flesh that was not healed, do you understand how serious infection was at that time?

You know that anything left imbedded in the flesh was often Fatal? Infections were the number one killer in the days of practicing Humors. Rome did have some success at setting broken bones and helping wounded soldiers heal. Leaving foreign objects in the body though was not good.

Does my grace is sufficient mean more than enough, or is the Lord's Grace just something that does not contain enough to get the job done?

Paul was given something, not injured with something. He was given a "Aggelos" used 178 times (KJV) as Angel........... Would this mean a physical thorn? or did Paul quote one of several passages in the OT?

Timothy's Stomach:

Any scripture that says Timothy was not healed?

Why would one not drink the water in those days? Timothy was instructed to stop drinking it.

What would have been the purpose of a Alcoholic beverage, in connection with water in Paul's day?

Does the Lord have Wisdom to treat things without some Miracle?

You forgot..... This is another favorite to prove something that is not there....

2Ti 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

Actually Jesus WAS poor and you clearly are reading I to those points you mentioned.

First off, Jesus pulling the money out of a fish ( ACTUALLY IT WAS PETER ) was an isolated incident that shows up ONLY once. Jesus also did it NOT to get money but to pay a tax and show the authorities he was not above the law.

Jesus feeding the 5,000 was to feed OTHERS, he and the apostles got leftovers, certainly not rich.

The 30,000 in perfume was NOT from Jesus. It WAS from a repentant woman.

His clothing was ONE SINGLE garment, which is not necessarily rare. Owning 1 suit also doesn't make one rich.

Becoming a kind doesn't mean your rich either. Look st some of the OT kings, for example Saul the first King of Israel was a regular peasant like everyone else.

YOU are REALLY reading into those points. NONE of them show Jesus as a rich man. If you re-read your own passages IN CONTEXT, I think you will realize what I have said is true.

[Floatingaxe]

I'm not arguing against tithing. Tithing is a good thing and I think every believer should give what they can and what they are lead to give with a cheerful heart.

Do you tithe, then?

But it is not "required." And if you are going to say it is, you need to provide scriptural proof. You haven't done so, and you've been asked for the proof several times. What you have given so far isn't it. Tithing is not "abolished." Just like every other component of Mosaic Law, it is fulfilled in Christ.

Right. Tithing has not been abolished. I have never said that we must tithe. That is only something God can tell you.

No one is saying anything about desiring wealth. That is your assumption.

It isn't an assumption. You have stated three distinct (so far) problems that Christians with a lack of material wealth suffer from. I'll list them for you again, since you haven't acknowledged them yet:

A) Any Christian who is poor, materially, is in bondage.

B) Any Christian who is poor, materially, doesn't have enough faith.

C) Any Christian who is poor, materially, isn't a strong believer.

Nonsense. You put words in people's mouths. Isn't that like lying?

A. Poverty is indeed bondage. Ask anyone who is poor and can't meet his own needs. It makes Satan happy.

B. There is no measure of faith that anyone needs. One only needs to put it to use. Dare to believe God's word.

C. Jesus said that we will always have the poor among us. A poor Christian needs help, both materially and spiritually, to enable him to come to his full potential in Christ. For a Christian, it should be a temporary condition.

So obviously, since a believer who lacks material goods suffers from the above deficiencies, they should be desiring material wealth as a bench-mark of their Christianity. Because according to your formula, Lack Of Material Goods = Bad Christian.

We aren't to desire wealth. See how you draw false conclusions? That is based on hysteria.

To have any ministry at all we need money. Money isn't bad. People are.

Hardship occurs to everyone at one time or another and in one area of life or another. No one is saying that we are never to experience trouble. We have victory over it in Jesus Christ.

Why do you read into things and manipulate what people say? That is so lacking in integrity--and twisted in its own right.

A lack of integrity is not the problem. I don't believe that most people on this board who know me would question my integrity. When I am wrong, I admit it. When I make a mistake or go over the line, I apologize for it. The problem is you are running out of ways to defend a doctrine, and a mindset that can't be defended biblically. If you had a biblical defense, you would have presented it by now instead of accusing people who question your doctrine of manipulation and a lack of integrity. It is your doctrine which lacks integrity. It does not pass even a cursory biblical test. That is not my fault, nor is it wrong or spiteful of me to point it out.

I see a lack of spiritual integrity in your aggressive attack of something we all need to know---that poverty is not God's will of any human being. We are as His representatives on earth to be helping the poor! How can you do that when you are poor yourself? Search and discover why you are poor yourself and get on the bandwagon with the saints and help the poor! Stop railing at those who are doing what God requires. It's a waste of time.

My mother's parents were as poor as church mice. They grew up in Clinton, Missouri and moved to Kingman, Arizona in 1951. They were pulling a ram-shackled travel trailer with a 1935 Hudson Terraplane. They were actually shooting for Cali, but the Hudson didn't make it that far. I don't know how they ever had the money to buy a plot of land, but they did and then my mother and grandmother scrounged wood and other stuff from houses in town that had either burned down or where being torn down. The house didn't even have a foundation. It was built right on the dirt. It had cardboard doors inside and newspaper covering the walls and was like that into the 80's when my parents finally sold it after my grandparents were gone. It didn't have an inside toilet. There was an outhouse in the back yard. My Grandfather was an ordained Baptist Minister, ordained in the 40's in Clinton. He preached at churches in Kingman every time he was asked to. Both of them were poor, materially, but they were the richest people, spiritually I've ever known. I wish I was 1/10th as close to the Lord as they were. Material goods do not make one a good Christian, nor do they make one's faith or belief stronger. They actually impede both.

No one is talking about material goods here...only you equate God's provision and abundance with material goods.

[Floatingaxe]

Exaggerate much?

Tell me what is the exaggeration here:

God is our supplier and He gives liberally. That is the experience of every strong believer I know...and I know hundreds, if not thousands. The word of God is rich with God's great goodness of provision to those in dire need!!

2 Kings 4 speaks for me.

Methinks you are just being combative for sport.

[Sevenseas]

Exaggerate much?

Tell me what is the exaggeration here:

God is our supplier and He gives liberally. That is the experience of every strong believer I know...and I know hundreds, if not thousands. The word of God is rich with God's great goodness of provision to those in dire need!!

2 Kings 4 speaks for me.

Methinks you are just being combative for sport.

That's fine. Is everyone else here who disagrees with you in that category also?

Not taking the bait.

You make out God to be a liar if you really think He is saying we all should have alot of money, nice homes and cars and no problems. And that is part of

the agony of false doctrine...God gets blamed when actually he never said those things.

I only continue with this type of dialogue when the truth of God's word is besmeeched and twisted. I have nothing personal against you.

Edited April 30, 2012 by sevenseas

[Floatingaxe]

You make out God to be a liar if you really think He is saying we all should have alot of money, nice homes and cars and no problems.

Have I said that? You are going on assumption. No discussion is possible when one puts words in people's mouths. We are up against your prejudice.

I only continue with this type of dialogue when the truth of God's word is besmeeched and twisted. I have nothing personal against you.

The only twisting is what you are saying, assuming to speak against what you think people are saying, and they aren't. Is that wisdom? You are air-boxing.

Proverbs 15:28

The heart of the godly thinks carefully before speaking; the mouth of the wicked overflows with evil words.