God is love. God is just.

[Copper Scroll]

This discussion splinters off of the "Eternal Torture" thread. I posed a question there that seems to have gone unanswered and would distract from the current course of that discussion. I wrote in a recent post:

The argument is that people who are generally unintiated to Christian theology would be misled by the teachings that "God is love" and "God is just". I am not arguing that God is not loving or is not just. I'm just saying that people generally take these ideas from the church and run with them. If God is love and is just, they assume, I can get into heaven if I just try to lead a decent life and have good intentions. Surely a loving and just God, they assume, would not send me to be tortured eternally if I try by darndest to be a good person. Perhaps it is the fault of our culture that people would draw these assumptions based on the idea that God is love and is just. But just as preachers tailor their sermons to their audiences, we must be cognizant of where people are at. People are at a place where they might draw the wrong assumptions based on the teachings that God is love and is just.

I read somewhere here that most Christians aren't Christians--meaning, most people who claim to be Christians and followers of Christ actually reject a lot of (what at least some people here would call) the basic tenets of Christianity (like the notion that the universe was created in a week, or that anyone ever rose from the dead, etc.). How does this happen? I think it happens by (1) people either believing the Bible is flawed or that it is mostly figurative or just plain not reading the Bible at all. A lot of "Christians" just read what their pastor asks them to read during his/her sermons, and pastors tend to avoid "hard passages" (like God asking people to slaughter little babies) in favor of nice and flowery scriptures (like "God is love" and passages about heaven and how to get there)... which brings us to (2) Every Christian has heard that God is love and that God is just and that God is gracious and forgiving. They have also heard that God is holy, but I don't think how this concept plays out in reality is really understood by most "Christians". If they took a closer look, they might see that God's holiness seems to compromise expression of other attributes like love, grace, and forgiveness. They might also see that God's holiness would seem to reinforce a completely different idea of justice than the one we tend to carry around.

So the ultimate question is: Are the people being misled by the notion that God is love and that God is just?

[Scarletprayers]

I would say yes, with a but.........................if the only reason you believe is because of what someone tells you, then you really only have faith in "that" person. To have real faith you have to read the Bible, pray, study and want to know the truth. I was raised Church of Christ, as I matured, I decided I needed to know what the Bible said, not what some preacher or other person said.

[Catsmeow]

I read somewhere here that most Christians aren't Christians--meaning, most people who claim to be Christians and followers of Christ actually reject a lot of (what at least some people here would call) the basic tenets of Christianity

First of all, don't trust everything you read. You read "somewhere". Where? Who wrote it? What documentation did they give? Are there studies and polls taken to prove this statement?

Jesus' words are truth. He explained that God's Word would fall on different types of ground (fertile soil, rocky areas, thorny places, and so on). Some receive God's Word and some don't.

No statistics are given by Christ so we have no idea if "most" Christians aren't Christian.

What DOES matter is "we" be personally accountable to where "we are" in Christ. Our purpose in life is to seek first the Kingdom and it's righteousness.

[Catsmeow]

agree in principle with some of what you said, such as, that preachers shy away from hard scriptures, and instead, preach flowery sermons. They do spend all of there time showing the love of God, and avoiding scriptures that show his wrath,

Brother Butero, I don't mean to highjack the topic here but just wanted to briefly comment that we do seem to have a lot of "positive confession" televangelists these days....Joel Osteen, Robert Schuller, et al...but very few Billy Graham's who warn us of the consequences of sin.

Some do more than "shy away"...they outright avoid the word, "sin"...altogether.

[EricH]

agree in principle with some of what you said, such as, that preachers shy away from hard scriptures, and instead, preach flowery sermons. They do spend all of there time showing the love of God, and avoiding scriptures that show his wrath,

Brother Butero, I don't mean to highjack the topic here but just wanted to briefly comment that we do seem to have a lot of "positive confession" televangelists these days....Joel Osteen, Robert Schuller, et al...but very few Billy Graham's who warn us of the consequences of sin.

Some do more than "shy away"...they outright avoid the word, "sin"...altogether.

People by nature will focus on that which give them the most comfort and makes them feel the best about what they are currently doing. It should be no surpirse that folks have focused on those aspects of God's eternal character that give them the most comfort, and marginalized those that do not

[Copper Scroll]

I read somewhere here that most Christians aren't Christians--meaning, most people who claim to be Christians and followers of Christ actually reject a lot of (what at least some people here would call) the basic tenets of Christianity

First of all, don't trust everything you read. You read "somewhere". Where? Who wrote it? What documentation did they give? Are there studies and polls taken to prove this statement?

I've looked but can't find the original post. It was in WB and it was supported by what I presume was a real study--a survey, I think.

Jesus' words are truth. He explained that God's Word would fall on different types of ground (fertile soil, rocky areas, thorny places, and so on). Some receive God's Word and some don't.

Good point. The Bible also speaks of false teachers that lead people astray. I fear that this can be done even unintentionally. My question is whether we do it unintentionally by preaching that God is love and that God is just. Edited February 15, 2006 by Copper Scroll

[Catsmeow]

Oooh, boy...that's a tough one. I dunno....intentional or not.

I do agree with Eric, some folks are very uncomfortable about the problem of sin. I read a transcript from Larry King Live, where Joel Osteen was interviewed and I can get you the transcript if you want....

BUT....Joel was asked about sin and I believe homosexuality by Larry King and Osteen just couldn't come out and say it's a sin...his answer was pretty much, "Uh, well...I don't judge people...."..and boy oh boy, was there some discomfort and him-hawing around.

He really didn't have the guts to say, "Larry, that's a sin and God disapproves of it...because the bible says so."

It seemed that he had numerous ocassions to answer the question but no matter how hard Larry King prodded him, he just couldn't answer him, "That's a sin." He avoided the "sin" issue completely and totally.

When I heard him preach last week, he began a whole deal on "Positive Confession" and if you say it, it will happen.

So, I dunno...I've enjoyed Joel Osteen's preachin' but I think he's more of an "encourager" than a preacher, to be quite honest.

Some folks have a real hard time with certain things...(myself included).

[Catsmeow]

People by nature will focus on that which give them the most comfort and makes them feel the best about what they are currently doing. It should be no surpirse that folks have focused on those aspects of God's eternal character that give them the most comfort, and marginalized those that do not

Eric, I agree totally. I have a problem with witnessing. I freeze up unless I'm just in a conversation with someone and the topic comes up naturally.

I do leave bible tracts out almost everywhere I go...lots and lots of them. That way people aren't intimidated and I'm not fumbling around for words.

I guess my big weakness is that I don't feel very articulate in witnessing for Christ. I don't think fast on my feet and need time to ponder. That's why a message board works for me.

[Copper Scroll]

I am not sure what your point is Copper Scroll? I agree in principle with some of what you said, such as, that preachers shy away from hard scriptures, and instead, preach flowery sermons. They do spend all of there time showing the love of God, and avoiding scriptures that show his wrath, including New Testament scriptures like the story of Ananias and Saphira, and Herod, from the book of Acts.

I wonder whether (granted the theology that supports eternal torture for the unfaithful is true) Christian leaders should bring back those old fire-and-brimstone sermons I saw on the history channel.

I am trying to figure out what your purpose is in bringing this question to the forefront?

I think its a vital question, if fire-and-brimstone theology is true. That theology is certainly supported by scripture. If it's true, then it could spell my own eternal damnation--a tortuous one. After reflecting on the "Eternal Torture" thread, I asked myself how this happened. I was raised in a Baptist church. The God I worshipped was loving and forgiving and just and in control. I have read the Bible in its entirety once, but I'm afraid my perspective was slanted in favor of a liberal, loving, forgiving, and just God. I say my perspective was slanted because I carried my own notions of what love is and what justice is into the text--rather than letting the text to dictate this to me. I believed in a liberal God because of my cross cultural experiences and respect for people of all faiths. For example, I remember watching the movie Gandhi and thinking "Now, this is a man of God--whatever his religion. MLK admired this man and followed his example." Gandhi's ideas and actions were in many ways Christ-like. He did so much to benefit people and did it righteously. It never even crossed my mind that God might torture him for eternity because he is a Hindu. So I read the Bible with preconceived notions that led me to just about ignore those "hard passages" I mentioned before. I ignored the f&b aspects of the Bible and for that may be going to a f&b hell. I doubt I am alone in this... so it's a very important question I think.

Are you a born again Christian?

How do you feel about the God of the Bible?

Do you love the Jesus of the New Testament?

Do you love the God of the Old Testament?

Do you think he was unjust in the way he dealt with sinners in the New Testament?

Do you think he was unjust in the way he dealt with sinners in the Old Testament?

I am what many would call a "liberal" Christian. I think the Bible should be read as a guide to life and wisdom moreso than as a factual document--the Bible should be read with a mind in the present, not a mind in the distant past or distant future. (I don't want to distract from the present issue, though--so I won't answer the other questions unless you can show me some relevance to the matter at hand.)

I didn't then, nor do I now feel it is my place to judge your Christianity or your motives, so that is why I am asking you directly, rather than simply making assumptions.

I appreciate this.

As far as basic tenets of the faith go,

Those were just examples. I didn't mean to imply a position on those issues.

[Copper Scroll]

COPPER SCROLL,

I WOULD APPRECIATE IT IF YOU WOULD ANSWER MY QUESTIONS TO YOU. I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM? IS IT FROM THE SIDE OF A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN WHO HAS SINCERE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE BIBLE, OR IS IT FROM THE SIDE OF AN UNBELIEVER WHO DOESN'T LIKE THE GOD OF THE BIBLE AND IS TRYING TO TURN OTHERS AWAY FROM THIS MEAN SPIRITED GOD? I WILL RE-POST THIS AND LOOK FOR YOUR RESPONSE.

whoa