Copper Scroll Posted February 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 21, 2006 I originally (perhaps, repeatedly) posed this question on the Doctrine forum but never got an answer. The closest thing to an answer I got was that old, compelling brick wall "God's ways are higher and/or mysterious." (This is undeniable, but, I hope, there is a more reasonable answer. Perhaps, there is not.) The question is: If God created humans perfect but knew that humans were bound to sin, why does sin make God so angry and wrathful that he would want to punish sinners for eternity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted February 21, 2006 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.88 Content Count: 43,795 Content Per Day: 6.21 Reputation: 11,243 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 21, 2006 Romans 9:20 No, but, O man, who are you who replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him who formed it , Why have you made me this way? Used this elsewhere. It seems to fit here too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted February 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 21, 2006 (edited) Romans 9:20 No, but, O man, who are you who replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him who formed it , Why have you made me this way? Used this elsewhere. It seems to fit here too. The brick wall. It fits because it's an argument that can't be beat. It could answer any question about God, but people don't tend to use it unless they are all out of rational answers. Any counterexample will be shot down with "Well, you are not God, are you?" I could imagine myself creating a robot designed to move around. Would it be reasonable for me to get angry with the robot when that robot gets stuck in a corner? If anything, I'll get angry with myself. But... well... I'm not God, am I? Edited February 21, 2006 by Copper Scroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InternalFlame Posted February 22, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 77 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 422 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/30/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/24/1985 Share Posted February 22, 2006 (edited) God does not MAKE us obey him because He wants us to CHOOSE to obey him. Think of how dissapointed He must get when we choose to do wrong, and go down the wrong path. Also, punishment can help us to learn as well. If we do something wrong and face the consequences then we learn later to avoid such things. Edited February 22, 2006 by InternalFlame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgolvach Posted February 22, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 110 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,254 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2006 What does hell make us learn? How do we grow from that? I believe in hell by the way. I just have never fully understood it. Probably never will. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted February 22, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2006 Hell is not designed to be a learning experience for those who go there. It is not a redemptive tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted February 22, 2006 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted February 22, 2006 I originally (perhaps, repeatedly) posed this question on the Doctrine forum but never got an answer. The closest thing to an answer I got was that old, compelling brick wall "God's ways are higher and/or mysterious." (This is undeniable, but, I hope, there is a more reasonable answer. Perhaps, there is not.) The question is: If God created humans perfect but knew that humans were bound to sin, why does sin make God so angry and wrathful that he would want to punish sinners for eternity? Hi copper scroll where does it tell us in the word that He knew that man would sin. In Gen 6:6 And it repented the Lord that he made man on earth and it grieved Him at His heart. Gen 6:7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man and beast and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenth Me that I made them. He didn't say, " I knew this would happen" as so many believe. He merely mentioned that He wished it hadn't happened. People will say, "but God is omniscient He must have known." That doesn't mean to say that He must excercise His omnicience all the time. A strong man doesn't have to flex his muscles every day to prove he is strong. Nobody but God himself knows whether or not the angels or man would rebel and nobody can come up with scripture to prove it one way or the other. For my own peace of mind I prefer to belive God did not know for sure. have a great day, eric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted February 22, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 22, 2006 He didn't say, " I knew this would happen" as so many believe. He merely mentioned that He wished it hadn't happened. People will say, "but God is omniscient He must have known." That doesn't mean to say that He must excercise His omnicience all the time. A strong man doesn't have to flex his muscles every day to prove he is strong. Nobody but God himself knows whether or not the angels or man would rebel and nobody can come up with scripture to prove it one way or the other. For my own peace of mind I prefer to belive God did not know for sure. I guess this is a good point. Maybe God can't always tell the future. But many scriptures to indicate that God's knowledge is perfect. A strong man doesn't have to flex all of the time, but he can't make himself not strong. If he has to lift something, he's going to use his strength. If you know something, you can't make yourself not know it. Even if you could, you would have to know it first before you can make yourself somehow ignore or forget it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted February 22, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2006 God knows all things actual and possible. He has perfect knowledge (Job 37:16) and knows everything (1 John 3:20). Open theism is an attempt to limit this knowldege by stating that God did not in fact know everything before it happened. This position is rife with weaknesses, and has been discussed here on the forums in the past. God is also eternal meaning that all events (past, present and future) are equally vivid to him at any moment in time. To arrive at a position based on how it makes us feel, is not the best way to do theology. It can lead to a theology that is man-centered rather than God-centered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted February 22, 2006 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted February 22, 2006 ErisH said. To arrive at a position based on how it makes us feel, is not the best way to do theology. It can lead to a theology that is man-centered rather than God-centered ................................................................................ ............................. I agree brother, but I don't believe what I believe just to make me feel good. I do know what the dictionary defines as omniscient and I dont doubt that God is just that and even if He did know that Adam would fall, He makes no mention of ot in His word and according to the previous scriptures in Gen 6::6-7, It sounds as if He was angry with Himself for ever creating man in the first place. One can only read what is written and not assume too much about something not written. I am not trying to argumentative. I'm still learning eric ( with a little e ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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