Mystery Babylon

[apothanein kerdos]

Look, it is impossible for America to be babylon....unless we are suggesting that the entire US is going to be put under water.

The US simply is not in any biblical prophecy because, by the time it occurs, we will be a non-issue.

[eric]

Round about the turn of the twentieth century, Britain and her mandates were cosidered to be the biggest empire in the world and England is surrounded with water and London was called the hub of the universe. England was well into wichcraft and the occult long before America became the USofA.................Now the british empire has fallen and it's next king is an adulterer and the head of the anglican church is a self professed homosexual and there is as many rapscallions leading the church of england, as there are in the catholic church. Blair and Bush are both tarred with the same brush, so it's a toss up tp me who rates highest in being the mystery babylon, which in my opinion is a lot of speculation on everyone's part. I myself have no idea.

eric.

[BlindSeeker]

Nebula, the answer is not as simble as your question . . . but here is some things to consider.

Rev. 13: 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Verse 3 says, "All the world wondered after the beast" and verse 4 says " who is able to make war with him." This is because of the "great wonders" that the second beast has authority and power to do "He maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men." It is this great fire that falls to the earth from the heavens that "deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles [never before accomplished] which he had power to do in the sight of the beast." It was this method of retaliation upon those who started the war with the initial blow to the beast that this leader was not only able to cause a full recovery of the beast " which had the wound by a sword, and [yet] did live," but also to catapult it to a position of global supremacy. It was this never before accomplished "fire" which came "down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men" that made "all the world"say "who is able to make war with him?"

All the world wondered . . . Just who is this Beast?

In studying the Beast of Revelation we need to remember the order of events the Apostle John is witnessing. John sees the beast rise up out of the sea in chapter 13 and rise to a place of global admiration because it's miraculous victory in war. This beast then institutes a new system where by "no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." Finally, this civil system requires all, "both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads."

This system infuriates God because humanity was created in the image of God and is to be the glory of God in the earth. Man was intended to be serving the LORD with gladness . . . [for] the LORD He is God: it is He that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are His people, and the sheep of His pasture.] Yes, "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." But here we see this corrupt government wanting to take those who were created in the image of God, those who's very bodies were design to be the temple of God, and desecrate it with a "mark" and oblige it to now serve/worship the beast.

• I Cor. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
  20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
  
  
  
  • Rev. 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
    9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb
    
    
    Next in chapter 17 the apostle John now sees the introduction of a woman which is, like the beast itself, is "sitteth upon many waters." Not only was this woman like the beast, via her influence upon many "nation and tongue," she also is now shown to John to be riding the beast. This represents an end time merger between the eighth beast (a final kingdom) and the mother whore (false religious system). This merger takes place before the final destruction of the eighth beast and the whore riding it. Yet this merger of theirs is only an attempt to deceive the nations and the true church, which " if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.".
    
    The driving force behind the woman is the same force behind the beast. It is the dragon which gives them both their power and seat, and authority. This deceitful force behind this ungodly union of "church and state" is the same force the apostle Paul warned the Church of Corinth about.
    
    
    • II Cor. 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
      14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
      15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
      
      
      Right here we can see that in Revelation chapter 17 the angel is about to explain who and what chapter's 13-16 were all about. Up until the angel's explanation to him, all John knew was what he had seen, but not what it had all meant. The angel clearly tells John two things. First, " I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters," and secondly, "I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns."
      
      This "mystery" is something that God was not only wanting to reveal to John, it was something He was committing unto John for him to reveal to the whole church of Jesus Christ. We can be certain of this by the Angel's statement that all "they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world."
      
      What we can gleam from that statement, and the scriptures listed below, is that God wants and even expects His church to know and understand this "mystery." If our names are in the Lamb's book of life than we do not have to be, nor should we be wondering about this mystery. If we are wondering, than perhaps we haven't been truly seeking it out and proving it by both history and other Biblical support. God wants His people to know.
      
      
      • Mr 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
        
        Mark 4: 22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.
        23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
        24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
        25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.
        
        Lu 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
        
        Ac 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
        
        I Thess 5: 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that day should overtake you as a thief.
        5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
        6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
        
        Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
        2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
        
        
        One of the main clues the angel told the apostle John is one that many seem to overlook. The angel told John, "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition." In another place the angel repeats it this way, "the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."
        
        Most people skip this clue and simply go to the part about the "seven mountains" and want to identify them as the seven "hills" of Rome so they can apply these verse to the Roman Catholic Church. My question to those who interpret it that way is when did the Catholic Church cease to exist and then revive?" The phrase "was, and is not, and yet is," certainly means something existed and then ceased to exist, and then came into being again.
        
        What else in the Holy Scriptures besides the beast can we find that today would answer that phrase? Answer, that which the beasts of Daniel persecuted -Israel. Israel "was" every since it conception in Egypt and it continued as a nation until 70 A.D. when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple and literally, the national structure of Israel. Rome was Daniel's "fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces [israel], and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it" because it did not just dominate Israel, it caused Israel to cease to exist, or as it says in Revelations, "is not."
        
        Borrowing part of Revelation 17:8, ". . . that was, and is not, and yet is." Now this verse does actually refer to the beast, but we can certainly see a parallel between the beast and the nation of Israel, and perhaps we well should.
        
        
        
        • Revelation 17: 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
          10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
          
          
          
          • Rev.17:8 The beast that thou sawest was (past), and is not (present or a duration of time); and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition (future); when they behold the beast that was (past), and is not (present or a duration of time), and yet is.
            Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen (past), and one is (present or a duration of time), and the other is not yet come (future); and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
            
            
            If we were to address this to what was then the apostle John's PRESENT (the time of the angelic discourse), and ask him if there was a king oppressing the nation of Israel, he would answer definitively, "Yes, Caesar of Rome."
            • The Seven Mountains
              
              
              
              • Jeremiah 51: 24 And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith the LORD.
                
            25 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.
            
            Zechariah 4: 7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
            
            Da 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
            
            Da 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
            
            Am 4:1 Hear this word, ye kine of Bashan, that are in the mountain of Samaria, which oppress the poor, which crush the needy, which say to their masters, Bring, and let us drink.
            
            Am 6:1 Woe to them that are at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria, which are named chief of the nations, to whom the house of Israel came!
            

            So who are the "seven mountains?" We know four of them from the book of Daniel:

            3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

            4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. [babylonian Empire]

            5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. [Mede/Persia Empire]

            6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. [Greek Empire]

            7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. [Roman Empire]

            Now we know the six head was the one at the time John was Rome, and we can also see the three before Rome. But that is only four beasts, since Rome was the sixth beast that means we are short two. However, the key to understanding the seven headed beast is to remember the beast correlates to Israel.

            Israel as a nation was birth when Moses led them out of slavery in Egypt. It was there that the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, "increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them." So much so that the Egyptians began to fear them.

            Therefore, Egypt is therefore the first head of the beast. But who is the second? Well before the Babylonian captivity the nation of Israel divided into two. (See I King 12:2-20)

            Because Israel was divided with two separate kings, Jeroboam was afraid the hearts of the people would return toward Jerusalem and he would lose his control of them, so hew made two golden calfs for the people to worship . . .

            27 If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah.

            28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

            29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.

            30 And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.

            Because of this idolatry, God raised up Assyria to punish the ten northern tribes of Israel

            II Kings 17:18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.

            23 Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day.

            Therefore Assyria is the second beast. Let's look at the whole order of the those heads of the beast which we have clarifed. First we have the five that are fallen at the time of the Apostle John's vision

            1. Egypt

            2. Assyria

            3. Babylon

            4. Mede/Persia

            5. Greece

            Then we have the "one is" which would be Rome, the sixth head "which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces." For that is what Rome did to Israel in 70 A.D. At that time, Jerusalem was destroyed according to the prediction of our Lord, and was to "be trodden down by the Gentiles." Thus it happen, and it was never again in the possession of the Jews until 1948 after the conclusion of World War II.

            But who had the land back then? Who had gain possession of it prior to Israel's rebirth? The British Empire had it.

            It was said that "The sun never sets on the British Empire." England had conquered so much that all around the world there were subdued provinces of the British Empire. But it was also because of England that America sought to get involved in World War II that brought the decline of the British empire and gave America it's occasion to rise to national supremacy.

            So if we look at the whole list of those nations or empires which have had a direct relationship with Israel, either by taking her into captivity or having dominion over them and their land, it would be as follows:

            1. Egypt

            2. Assyria

            3. Babylon

            4. Mede/Persia

            5. Greece

            6. Rome

            7. England

            But look what the scriptures says:

            Rev. 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

            What does that mean? Is the eighth from all seven? A melting pot society? Or does it mean it is of/from the 7th . . . and where did we come from? England.

            Either way the shoe fits.

            8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

            9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

            10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

            11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

            Just a thought . . . perhaps the reason the beast in Rev 12 has the seven crowns upon the seven heads and in Rev 13 the crowns are now on the horns is because God has taken away the glory of the eighth beast and given her destruction to the 10 horns.

[BlindSeeker]

Look, it is impossible for America to be babylon....unless we are suggesting that the entire US is going to be put under water.

Perhaps you would explain.

At this point I wish to wait for Christ Free Servant to reply since it is her thread before I post any more.

[Christ's Free Servant]

Look, it is impossible for America to be babylon....unless we are suggesting that the entire US is going to be put under water.

Perhaps you would explain.

At this point I wish to wait for Christ Free Servant to reply since it is her thread before I post any more.

Well, I'm just beginning to get my brain back. I did just read your previous post. I think it makes sense. I don't understand apothanein kerdos' comment about the USA all being under water, though. Do the scriptures say that Mystery Babylon will all be under water?

Rev 18:21: "Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:

[branchesofHim]

One of the main clues the angel told the apostle John is one that many seem to overlook. The angel told John, "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition." In another place the angel repeats it this way, "the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

Israel has never been to the bottomless pit. The bottomless pit is a prison for fallen angels. Therefore Israel cannot be the "beast" of Revelation. The "Beast", with the body of a leopard, is a fallen angel, the same one who aided Alexander, also depicted as a leopard in the book of Daniel. The beast is a fallen angel who takes the form of a man, and recieves his power from satan, hence the number "666", and the ten kingdoms share their power with him.

It is interesting that the only other place in the Bible we see the number "666" is in the book of Daniel. The image was 60 cubits tall, and 6 cubits by 6 cubits at the base. Additionally, there were 6 types of musical instruments named.

Has anyone considered the "apostate church" here?

Hmmmmmm. That's truly a thought worth considering.

Peace.

[desertcry]

I'm going to step out on a limb here. I believe that Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem. Here's an online article on it Jerusalem Mystery Babylon

- Jerusalem sits on 7 hills.

- Jerusalem is the center for many false religions such as Islam

- Jerusalem is described as wearing scarlet and purple and the OT

- The Blood of the saints and prophets are found in Mystery Babylon, In Matthew 23 Jesus saids that the blood of the righteous are upon the pharisees and after that he mentions Jerusalem

- Revelations warns us to come out of her. Jesus warned in the end to flee from Jerusalem to the hills of Judea.

- In Revelation 11 Jerusalem is called the great city. Mystery Babylon is also called the great city.

This is not to say that the USA doesn't have anything to do with mystery babylon. We are highly involved with issues that have to do with Jerusalem. It does seem like some of the prophecies are connected to the United States.

[Christ's Free Servant]

I believe all the ideas have merit, they all do, but I still see no other nation or city that has the influence over the world as does the USA/NYC/DC. What other nation/city would cause the world to weep at her destruction? Let me give some examples from Rev 17/18 that I think only describes America today:

Then the angel said to me,

[nebula]

Nebula, the answer is not as simble as your question . . .

This "mystery" is something that God was not only wanting to reveal to John, it was something He was committing unto John for him to reveal to the whole church of Jesus Christ. We can be certain of this by the Angel's statement that all "they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world."

What we can gleam from that statement, and the scriptures listed below, is that God wants and even expects His church to know and understand this "mystery." If our names are in the Lamb's book of life than we do not have to be, nor should we be wondering about this mystery. If we are wondering, than perhaps we haven't been truly seeking it out and proving it by both history and other Biblical support. God wants His people to know.

Mr 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

You know, when you throw stuff out like that, it makes me not want to bother discussing anything with you.

"If our names are in the Lamb's book of life than we do not have to be, nor should we be wondering about this mystery. If we are wondering, than perhaps we haven't been truly seeking it out and proving it by both history and other Biblical support."

OK, Mr. Intellectually Arrogant - for that's what statements like that give you the appearance of - if it is "so easy", why are countless professional and non-professional theologians still in debate over this? Just because you are a better debater than most people doesn't make you right.

And really - referring to Mystery Babylon as a mystery of the Kingdom of God? When I seek out the mystery of the Kingdom of God, I could care less about mysteries of this world - and considering I'm a scientist, that says a lot. I could care less about the mysteries of Satan and his kingdom. When I seek the Kingdom of God, I seek Jesus. To make such an insult as you have above was truly uncalled for.

*****************************

Going back to the WWII - Pearl Harbor - "Who is able to make war with the Beast?" - interpretation,

What for me throws this interpretation off is actually the Soviet Union. Besides that it is hard for me to imagine Pearl Harbor being the deadly wound (I wasn't alive back then so I don't know what it was like, but in reading history, I never got the sense that Pearl Harbor was a death blow to the US. But after WWII, Russia took control of the nations that were divided to it and created the Soviet Union, challenging the US for world power - you know, the Cold War. It was called "war" for a reason, you know. So, I wouldn't say Russia/the Soviet Union was too "astonished" at us. They went on to build the same kinds of bombs we had. I don't see in Revelation the mention of another nation (beast) gaining the same power to create fire from the sky (if that was indeed to mean the atomic bomb).

Rev. 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

What does that mean? Is the eighth from all seven? A melting pot society? Or does it mean it is of/from the 7th . . . and where did we come from? England.

Either way the shoe fits.

You see, even this isn't so cut and dry. "Of the 7" could just as easily mean from all seven of the lands - meaning having power over the areas the former 7 ruled. This could also mean Islam, depending on how one looks at things.

Also, Islam still controls part of Jeusalem. So, is "the time of the Gentiles trampling Jerusalem" truly over? Can it truly be over as long as the Dome of the Rock still stands on the Temple Mount?

And I admit you and others can just as easily find holes in this theory. Which is fine. I'm not basing anyone's standing with God based on their ability to interpret prophecy or not.

[Christ's Free Servant]

Who else but the USA/NYC/DC has had this kind of influence? Look around the world - how much of the world has adapted to our western culture? Who else has had the kind of magic that we have had that has had so many people wanting to live here?

Well, in their own times, each of the major empires was like that.

America did not come into existence as a nation until 1700 years after Revelation was written, so we fail the test. America is not the "mother of all nations". America is like a 3rd or 4th generation nation. It was founded primarily by the English, who were founded by the French... So America doesn't meet the typology of the Great Harlot, and neither does England, France, Germany, etc. The Harlot can only be the nation of Babylon, which is modern Iraq.

From that standpoint, that line of logic, I would agree, but we have to realize that God sees the end from the beginning, and he knew America would be a nation, he knew what our world would be like right now, so Revelation is not determined by the world when it was written. Also, it is filled with symbolism, so the "mother of all nations" could be us, because we birthed the United Nations, did we not? We have to think who best fits the description today. If he wanted to say Babylon, he would have just said "Babylon." I know you have an argument for that, but I truly believe the word "mystery" is in there on purpose. He was describing a place that did not exist.

But, you know, it really doesn't matter, because it will all come out with the wash anyway. Time is short. Time will tell.