David from New Bern Posted October 18, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted October 18, 2006 David, Our church goes back to the scriptures for the answers to these questions. We know that the scriptures teach that fornication and adultry are sins. Marriage was set up between man and woman by God and that is the law. Just because people live together does not mean they are married. What most are doing are having all the benefits of marriage without the responsiblilties. Two people living together in a sexual relationship is called fornication and this is what the bible has to say about it. Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; We have had this situation happen in our churches as well. We tell them to either separate or get married. 1 Corinthians 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. We follow what the laws of the land offer because that is what is recognized and bound. Mark 10:6-9 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. To me, using the excuse that they are married in God's eyes is just that, an excuse. There is nothing binding to keep either one in the relationship nor to execute any responsibilities. It is said to avoid appearances of evil so that nobody has anything evil to say about the church or Christianty. There are preachers and congregations all over the US already having problems with fornication and adultry running rampant. After these brethren have been instructed that they need to sparate or get married and they listen not then the church is to take action. We read in the 5th chapter of 1 Corinthians they withdrew from a brother in fornication. 1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. It sounds harsh, but that is what the scriptures command us to do. What about a situation involving a brand new Christian? The partner has had no similiar expereince with Christ. They are now a new convert living with a non-Christian outside the covenant of marriage, but with children produced through the longterm union. How patient should we be as the church in prescribing separation as the solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabowd Posted October 19, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 112 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,489 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 19, 2006 David, Our church goes back to the scriptures for the answers to these questions. We know that the scriptures teach that fornication and adultry are sins. Marriage was set up between man and woman by God and that is the law. Just because people live together does not mean they are married. What most are doing are having all the benefits of marriage without the responsiblilties. Two people living together in a sexual relationship is called fornication and this is what the bible has to say about it. Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; We have had this situation happen in our churches as well. We tell them to either separate or get married. 1 Corinthians 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. We follow what the laws of the land offer because that is what is recognized and bound. Mark 10:6-9 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. To me, using the excuse that they are married in God's eyes is just that, an excuse. There is nothing binding to keep either one in the relationship nor to execute any responsibilities. It is said to avoid appearances of evil so that nobody has anything evil to say about the church or Christianty. There are preachers and congregations all over the US already having problems with fornication and adultry running rampant. After these brethren have been instructed that they need to sparate or get married and they listen not then the church is to take action. We read in the 5th chapter of 1 Corinthians they withdrew from a brother in fornication. 1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. It sounds harsh, but that is what the scriptures command us to do. What about a situation involving a brand new Christian? The partner has had no similiar expereince with Christ. They are now a new convert living with a non-Christian outside the covenant of marriage, but with children produced through the longterm union. How patient should we be as the church in prescribing separation as the solution? I'm sorry if I'm asking something you've already answered but....are they not willing to get married? Is the non-Christian partner opposed to marriage? Since children are involved, I would not suggest separation as that would be really traumatic for them. They could cease from sexual relations (sin) without having to live apart. Maybe if the non-Christian partner realized that there would be no sex until they got married they would change their mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted October 19, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted October 19, 2006 If one partner is not willing to get married after children and living together and being counseled by the Church, that partner will likely never get married, and in the end will leave. This is the reason that co-habitating is dangerous for children and the reason out of wedlock birth is so damaging to children. It goes back to the relationship, why not get married? Legally it takes probably a half of an hour and could be done in the pastor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyRaven Posted October 20, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,981 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1964 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Someone has said that the institution of marriage is the backbone of our culture and the source of its decay when it decays. Does anyone on this thread believe that is true? It is true. I think the point of the thing is "what is marriage." It's a covenant between the married couple, and in the case of believers...God and covenant community. The role of the state in that is debatable. And no, not everyone who has a home together without a state certificate is married in the eyes of God. Obviously there has to be a lasting covenant of some sort which means as much to the people involved as a state certificate means to others. Most of the time, when people who are not believers move in together it's either because they want convenience, or because it's a trial run prior to marriage, neither of which makes them married. Therefore it's perfectly wise and acceptable to teach these people what marriage is and impress upon them the necessity of making a choice either to marry or stop trying to have the benefits of marriage without the commitment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyRaven Posted October 20, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,981 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1964 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Someone has said that the institution of marriage is the backbone of our culture and the source of its decay. Does anyone on this thread believe that is true? in the bible, God created marriage before he created the church, and you know how highly esteemed the church is in God's eyes, and i believe marriage was the backbone of our culture, but it is the decay of society that is the source of decay in marriage. if you want to dispute the fact i gave pertaining to marriage being created before the church. when God created eve for adam, i think that giving her a rib would be a commitment beyond the exchanging of gold bands, don't you? (this last was tongue in cheek) yeah, they had an arranged marriage, by the perfect matchmaker and were united by God directly, HE was the pastor/magistrate/covenant maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted October 20, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2006 Someone has said that the institution of marriage is the backbone of our culture and the source of its decay when it decays. Does anyone on this thread believe that is true? It is true. I think the point of the thing is "what is marriage." It's a covenant between the married couple, and in the case of believers...God and covenant community. The role of the state in that is debatable. And no, not everyone who has a home together without a state certificate is married in the eyes of God. Obviously there has to be a lasting covenant of some sort which means as much to the people involved as a state certificate means to others. Most of the time, when people who are not believers move in together it's either because they want convenience, or because it's a trial run prior to marriage, neither of which makes them married. Therefore it's perfectly wise and acceptable to teach these people what marriage is and impress upon them the necessity of making a choice either to marry or stop trying to have the benefits of marriage without the commitment. OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted October 20, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted October 20, 2006 If we as a people cannot accomplish marriage it means we don't know what it means to love. In the end the love of many will grow cold according to scripture. But as society becomes more self centered and prideful, the harder it is to be married or even be interested in marriage which means you must give up a part of yourself to somebody else and do this for life. In addition if we cannot raise children in marriage we hurt whole generations of young people, who then follow in these same patterns. Today in the US the MAJORITY of children in households are NOT being raised by two married people who are the biological parents of that child. Married households with children compromised 47% of the households in the US in 1967, today the compromise around 20%. The single largest increase in household types in that period is people living alone. This is from the latest census figures. Can our US culture survive? I doubt it not without radically changing our patterns of marriage, divorce and child rearing. We as a Christian people will survive just as Christians have survived in hedonistic/ pagan cultures in the past. Our struggle will be how much good we can do versus how much we will need to separate from the broader culture. Certainly we cannot allow the pagan culture to infect our own intuitions, by allowing things like divorce in the ministry, or acknowledging co-habitation as legitimate, if we lose our salt, what is the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David from New Bern Posted October 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted October 21, 2006 My question was...How patient should the church be? not should they accept the status quo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted October 21, 2006 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted October 21, 2006 So what you are asking, David is, If there is a couple in a defacto relationship, within your congregation, should they be allowed to stay, or should they be ex-communicated from the assembly? How patient should the church be, you ask. Isn't patience one of the components that make up the fruit of the spirit? along with the other eight. If they don't respond to the prayers and counselling of the pastor and the assembly and refuse to marry, then, I suppose you have to do what the bible tells you to do. JMHO.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lovinghim4ever Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 (edited) Has anyone actually confirmed that this couple is having sex, or are they just sharing a home together? The reason I ask is because I went through this very same thing with someone very dear to me. He and his girlfriend were engaged to be married. They decided to share a home together before marriage because it saved them A LOT of money. However, they were NOT having sex. They weren't even sleeping in the same house at night. He would bathe at his house and get ready for bed. Then, he would walk across the street to sleep at his father's house. She would sleep at "their" house. The next morning he would go back across the street to get ready for work and have coffee with his fiance'. They would both go off to work for the day and return in the evening to have dinner together. Then, at bedtime he would bathe at his house and get ready for bed. Then, he would walk across the street again to sleep at his father's house. They did not have sex until they were married, however they did LIVE in the same house. Yes, I know the "appearance of evil" verse and all, but some things are not always what they seem. So, before we go ex-communicating anyone for anything - "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." How do you counsel in this type of situation? The only answer I have is to listen (really listen) and be lead by God to say what HE wants you to say. How patient should we be? As patient as God is! Remember - He is longsuffering, and His mercy endures FOREVER! Also remember that we now live under God's grace, not man's law! Edited October 21, 2006 by lovinghim4ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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