Jacob as the first Isrealite

[Guest Cephas]

actually, I believe the first occurance of the word Jews was in 2 Kings 16:6 (in the King James) and it was when Israel was at war with the "Jews".

True, but it seems to be only the King James Version. The others say "men of Judah" or "Judeans."

It referred to the Kingdom of Judah, which included Judah, Benjamin, part of Levi, parts of Ephraim, Manassah and Simeon, and ALL of the Tribes of Israel... as stated in 2 Ch 11:14

2 Chr. 11:14 - For the Levites left their common-lands and their possessions and came to Judah and Jerusalem, for Jeroboam and his sons had rejected them from serving as priests to the Lord.

I'm not following you here. The Kingdom of Judah consisted of Judah, Benjamin and Levites - but not the other tribes of Israel. The other tribes of Israel were the Kingdom of Israel.

But yes, it was the people of the Kingdom of Judah who were eventually called Jews (Jew from Judah - or the Hebrew is Y@huwdiy from Y@huwdah).

Sorry, I was in a hurry last night, 2 Ch 11:16 refers to "all the tribes"

2 Chronicles 11:16 (KJV) 16And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers. 17So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, ....

from Quickverse, which allows me to quickly view many translations side by side, it seems the American Standard Version (ASV), the Darby New Translation (DNT), The Living Bible (TLB) and Young's Literal Translation (YLT) also use the word Jew in 2 Ki 16:6.

for the word translated Jew in 2 Ki 16:6 (and House of Judah, Judeans, etc in the other versions)

Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionary says this:

yehûdîy

yeh-hoo-dee'

Patronymic from H3063; a Jehudite (that is, Judaite or Jew), or descendant of Jehudah (that is, Judah): - Jew.

and the New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance says this:

Yehudi (397c); from H3063; Jewish: - Jew (10), Jewish (4), Jews (59), Jews

[Guest Cephas]

Was Abraham not the father of the Jews, which makes him the first one?

No, the term didn't apply until after the split of the Kingdom of Israel into the northern Kingdom of Israel and the southern Kingdom of Judah. Jew then applied to the southern Kingdom and all who lived there. as there were no Israelites until Israel (Jacob) had children. Abraham had more children than just Isaac, but it was through Isaac that God kept his Promises, and not through Esau the elder son of Isaac, but through Jacob.

[Guest Cephas]

I wanted to put this in the discussion today in the worthychat room, but the moderator told me not to since I was not a "teacher, and I would mislead people" with my semetics (not sure of the spelling of that)

Shelak

Then I would say that the moderator was mistaken. Presenting verses to show why you have a question or concern is perfectly valid for any Christian.

[Shelak]

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

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Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

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Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What [is] thy name? And he said, Jacob.

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Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

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Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked [him], and said, Tell [me], I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore [is] it [that] thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

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Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Hello,

The scripture I pasted above is the answer to my question ... It was Jacob whom the Lord changed his name to Israel... Jacob or (Israel) was the father of Judah and the others.

Thank you all for your input.

Shelak

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings,

Abram was born to Terah of the idolatrous nation of Ur of Chaldees. The name Hebrew is believed by some to come from the Name of Eber:

(First mention of the word Hebrew)

Genesis 14:13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.

Easton's Dictionary:

beyond. (1.). The third post-duluvian patriach after Shem (Gen. 10:24; 11:14). He is regarded as the founder of the Hebrew race (10:21; Num. 24:24). In Luke 3:35 he is called Heber.

Abram's name means "exalted father", but God changed his name to "Abraham" when He called him out of Ur. Abrham means "Father of the nations":

Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

It is written that it would be through Isaac that this promise to Abraham would be fulfilled:

Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Now Isaac had two children - Esau and Jacob.

Jacob became Israel who was of ONE nation. But the promise to Abraham was "father of many nations", so Esau too is included as part of that promise through Isaac. He married into the Ishmaelite tribe - which remained Hebrew. It was going to be through Jacob that God would continue His covenant promise to Abraham of being a "separate nation" from all the nations of the world.

The point here is that the Abrahamic covenant was fulfilled through both Esau and Jacob, but a "separate people" that is - taken out of the world of nations would only continue through one man and that was Jacob.

Now all this is only for us as a "type" and "shadow" of what was to come, for Isaac is a "type of Christ" through both whom Jew and Gentile look to as one head, one savior, one father of all.

So it not out patriarchy that has any significance, but it is Christ who has brought both Jew and Gentile into His Kingdom. There are Jewish believers and there are gentile believers. This is what is important.

I hope all that wasn't too confusing.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Old Timer]

This, to me, is one of the most interesting studies in Bible prophecy. I have no argument with what has been posted by Caphas, Nebula, Dad Ernie and others.

The term

[Guest Cephas]

Your thoughts are welcome.

Well, it's been a really long time since I studied any of this, but as I recall there are passages in Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekial (and some other of the minor prophets) that talk of "The Remnant of the House of Judah AND the Remnant of the House of Israel" returning after the Babylonian captivity, so, unless we want to share a dream of "the lost ten tribes" with those who misrepresent that, I would say that God has fulfilled those prophecies during the Time of the rebuilding of the Temple after the Babylonian exile. But, at this point I'm not prepared to find all those references again. Not to say that there won't be another 'fulfilling' of that at some future time, but as Mt 24 was fulfilled (at least the 'first time') by the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. I believe the reuniting was began during the times before the Assyrian captivity AND completed after the Babylonian exile.

Still, it will be good to see what others have to say on it. The best area of use I see for it is to show Mormons and other cults that the 10 tribes weren't lost, but actually existed in Judah before National Israel disappeared AND that they returned with the House of Judah after Babylon

If time permits, I will try to dig up my old studies on this

In His Name

[Gerioke]

What is the difference between an Israelite and an Israeli, and when did this metamorphoses occur?

[RGR]

I wanted to put this in the discussion today in the worthychat room, but the moderator told me not to since I was not a "teacher, and I would mislead people" with my semetics (not sure of the spelling of that)

Shelak

Then I would say that the moderator was mistaken. Presenting verses to show why you have a question or concern is perfectly valid for any Christian.

Cephas,

Shelak really needs to take this discussion between himself and the chat moderator in question. As far as any type of study goes, that is generally reserved for chat moderators/Worthy Watchmen. Anyone other than that would have to get approval from George, the steward of this site. And, to take it a step further, this board/chatroom are privately owned and the moderators DO have a right to say what is posted/is not posted.

[O'Dannyboy]

What is the difference between an Israelite and an Israeli, and when did this metamorphoses occur?

Now thats an interesting question. I am only guessing but an Isrealite is most likely a person who is one the lineage and/or beliefs of Jacob, meaning they are a mamber of the nation of Israel. To me, an Israeli is someone who lives in the land now called Israel. To be an Israeli you simply have to live in Israel, but to be a Jew is to be a member of the nation of Israel by blood. Though by todays standards, to be a jew you merely have to beleve as the Jews to be considered one, I think.