Heaven or Hell

[Fiosh]

These sort of topics have been discussed and debated ad infinitum and rarely edify the Body.

Such topics bring to mind how Jesus responded to Peter when Peter looked back at John and asked Jesus, "Lord, what about him?"

Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." John 21:22

What good do these discussions on suicide serve? Whether or not someone else is "saved"? We should spend the time and effort looking at ourselves and focus on our own relationship with God.

May the Lord Bless you all richly,

wayne

Amen Wayne! Thank you.

The threads are usually started by RCC members who want to propagate their belief that those who commit suicide are doomed to Hell.

Before this thread gets closed, please allow me to set the record straight. You have been misinformed, His Ambassador.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Suicide

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

Peace,

Fiosh

[forgiven1]

If our salvation is dependant upon our own righteousness, we are all dead. The only works necessary for salvation are 1) God had to send us His Son. 2) Christ had to die (lamb without blemish) to atone for our sins. 3) We have to believe in His atonement and receive Christ.

That's about it! It is only the forgiveness we receive from Him (the only righteous one) that makes us saved. Our own works do not make or maintain or bring down our righteousness. There is only one righteous and the only way we receive salvation is through Him forgiving us for our works of unrighteousness.

Now someone is bound to bring up that "faith without works is dead". Well, yes it is but I believe that means that your faith will not accomplish much for the Lord outside of your own salvation which has already been achieved.

People just can't seem to get over this whole works thing as if it were possible somehow to work up salvation. Jesus is in the business of forgiving sin! That's what He is about! Grace is something that is undeserved, not something worked up like you earned it.

Ephesians 2:8&9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

[Openly Curious]

What does it matter to those who are alive and who do not face or feel the pain of those who are suicidal? What does it matter if they go to heaven or hell? I don't feel it does matter at all except in a few short thoughts but they pass quickly. Once your dead you are forgotten and people move on. If one does not care for their souls while they are alive then why even bother with the question of are they in heaven or hell?

Heaven or hell only matters to the one standing on the brink of meeting one of the two places. And even on the brink it is only leaving the pain behind that is the issue at hand. Some people have no clue what the one sitting next to them may be going through silently

as the silent cries are not often heard by those who really do not care if they go to heaven or hell.

So this question will the saved go to heaven or hell? Well it just tells me that no one really cares where you go. Like I said above once your dead you will be forgotten and people move on. So why worry about such things.

I have developed such a disdain for the word "freewill" for it sounds good but people have no clue to what it really can do to a person.

Just my thoughts

OC

[Openly Curious]

If a saved person kills themself, where will they go?

chrismarc

This seems disingenuios on your part and you are looking for only a good debate and have no concern really for those who are facing such crisis within the family of G-d.

OC

[His Ambassador]

The Scriptures say we are not to discuss who went to hell and who went to heaven, for this is GOds Alone.

No one has yet gone to Heaven or Hell as no judgements have yet taken place.

[suzanagimpel]

The Scriptures say we are not to discuss who went to hell and who went to heaven, for this is GOds Alone.

Maybe some one remembers the scripture, as I don't at this moment.

The thing is that the times when people need to draw closest to Christ immediately, too often they turn away instead.

Don't let your feelings run your life. ALWAYS draw to Christ FIRST.

The better feelings will come later.

God bless,

elkie

Amen Elkie

ROM 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Love Suzana

[suzanagimpel]

ROM 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

ROM 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If I am saved and think that God has forgoten me and died angry at God. Am I going to hell?

Some people will feel more confortable to quickly respond, no because being angry sounds more forgivable than ignorance.

If a person is in avery painfull situation in their life and the devil lie to this person and the person belive that the only solution is suicide( being ignorant of the whole truth of who they are in Christ) is God gone let the devil win this soul by one more of his lies in a weak moment of a beliver.

No, I don't think so.

The only unperdonable sin is the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Which means denying that we are siners and Christ died for our sins, so refusing his calling ( the Holy Spirit call)

As the verses state above nothing else can separate us from the love of God.

Can I get a amen?

Love Suzana

[godrulz]

This is a practical, pastoral question, with doctrinal implications.

"Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Genesis 18:25 This is one of the few verses that give us comfort when someone's destiny is uncertain.

Suicide is not the unpardonable sin, but tends to be committed primarily by unbelievers.

Believers (saved) go to heaven. Unbelievers go to hell/lake of fire.

If a genuine Christian kills themselves due to mental instability or despair, they have not necessarily renounced Christ and His finished work.

Calvinists believe in unconditional eternal security (TULIP= perseverance of the saints) or OSAS (once saved, always saved).

The Bible teaches conditional eternal security: faith must continue, not cease or revert back to godless unbelief/apostasy/falling away.

Someone may have followed Christ as a teen, for example, but later went on to a godless life. Just because they were 'saved' years ago, does not mean they died saved. Suicide may be the end result of their selfish rebellion, so they will not go to heaven, since they are an unbeliever, by definition.

[Openly Curious]

The Scriptures say we are not to discuss who went to hell and who went to heaven, for this is GOds Alone.

Maybe some one remembers the scripture, as I don't at this moment.

OC

i think you are referring to Romans chapter 14

why do you think folks are so concerned after their already dead instead of before. it just doesn't make any sense to me.

[Guest Cephas]

Calvinists believe in unconditional eternal security (TULIP= perseverance of the saints) or OSAS (once saved, always saved).

The Bible teaches conditional eternal security: faith must continue, not cease or revert back to godless unbelief/apostasy/falling away.

Someone may have followed Christ as a teen, for example, but later went on to a godless life. Just because they were 'saved' years ago, does not mean they died saved. Suicide may be the end result of their selfish rebellion, so they will not go to heaven, since they are an unbeliever, by definition.

An interesting debate lies in your words. However, I will put it this way, If you die unsaved at any point, you were never saved, regardless of appearances at a younger point of life. Once you are saved, you already have the gift of eternal life, so you cannot lose it. If you 'lose' it, you never had it to begin with.

I don't know that it's a "Calvanist" viewpoint at all, My church isn't Calvanist and there are plenty of scriptures supporting a "once saved, always saved" belief.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

(John 5:24)

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

(1 John 5:11-13)

These two verses tell me that I have eternal life, today. It is not something I am working for. I have a "know-so" salvation. I am saved today, not years down the road. Salvation is a gift, not something I am working to gain or "retain."

Edited May 15, 2006 by Cephas