A few questions for any Christian

[emeraldgirl]

Shiloh, your posts reveal the precise arrogant disgust and presumption that offends me so much in Christianity. You sound just like I did in 1999 when I flamed a Gnostic Christian into oblivion because she dared to call herself a Christian one minute and the next say she didn't believe we were born in sin and the Bible was errant. (I wish I could find this gentle, kind, intelligent woman again to offer my deepest apology.)

Sylvan's views encapsulate my own thoughts well. Unconditional/conditional love is precisely the context I've considered it in. Because I am a mother and I don't require retribution for my children's mistakes; I just teach them what they need to do next time. This is humane and loving. I cannot be more loving than God, I presume. In fact, becoming a mother was to me what hinted to me of what Divine love could really be like.

This is particularly evident when one considers that beliefs are not truly under a person's control. People can say they believe something but not truly believe it. If I told you that the local youth (ages 12-15) football team could beat the Pittsburgh Steelers ten times in a row in a series of legitimate football games, could you believe this? Of course not--even if you wanted to believe it (i.e. maybe you don't like the Steelers and you really like the youth football team).

This is precisely my dilemma, sylvan; you're right!

I think Christianity does withstand objective scrutiny

[EricH]

Because I am a mother and I don't require retribution for my children's mistakes; I just teach them what they need to do next time. This is humane and loving. I cannot be more loving than God, I presume. In fact, becoming a mother was to me what hinted to me of what Divine love could really be like.

So I take it you are in favor of just pointing out people's mistakes and sending them on their way no matter what it is that they have done

[WayneB]

Sylvan's views encapsulate my own thoughts well. Unconditional/conditional love is precisely the context I've considered it in. Because I am a mother and I don't require retribution for my children's mistakes; I just teach them what they need to do next time. This is humane and loving. I cannot be more loving than God, I presume. In fact, becoming a mother was to me what hinted to me of what Divine love could really be like.

I think this is where we differ emeraldgirl. I am a father of two adult sons. I love my sons deeply, which is why I allow them to suffer the consequences of their wrong choices. Sure I am there for them but they must repent of their bad choice. For many, they need to touch a hot stove to experience the burn ignoring every and all warning. Remember when you were a teenager? It was long ago for me but I thought I knew it all and no one, especially my parents, could tell me anything. The way I learned was by my mistakes. Before a person can effectively discipline, they have to be effectively disciplined and learn self-discipline. Now when a child refuses correction and continues to go down a destructive path, what would you do? When they refuse to acknowledge you and will not speak to you, what will you do? When they have completely rejected you, how will you respond? Jesus was nailed to a sinner's cross for us. Would you do the same?

Divine love? It is Jesus washing the feet of HIS betrayer. It is Jesus pleading for the Father to forgive those who nailed HIM to a Cross. It is Jesus gently reinstating a repentant Peter after he had denided Christ 3 times. It is Jesus willingly laying down HIS life for you and me when we still HIS enemies. That is divine perfect love. It isn't just loving a child.

I speak from experience by the way. One of my sons was headed down a dark path. He had a choice to make. IF he wanted a relationship with me and his mother, he would have to turn away from his destructive lifestyle...one that could have landed him diseased and most probably dead. He chose righteousness and today, as a result of our love for him and being obedient to God's leading, he is on a road to a bright future. I see it everyday. Well-meaning parents sometimes do more harm than good by accepting their children in their sin rather than setting the moral bar high. I see it every Monday night when I talk to men in jail.

I'm working on it. At least, I've spent many intensive hours reading the Bible.

God bless you. I believe you, which is why I am sharing my thoughts with you. Keep seeking. May I point out though, that by your own admission, you have never read the Bible in its entirety? Pray & read...don't study. Just pray & read from Genesis through Revelation. It is what helped me. Look for God's handwriting throughout and see how it all ties togther. My belief is that is why Christianity is so fractionalized; too many people read bits & pieces but not the whole and end up taking much of the Word out of context.

Set aside your anger and clothe yourself in humility. Seek righteousness and for the first time, read the Bible through with a candid mind. Pray before you read that God will open your heart & mind to His Truth.

I may do this, Wayne, but it wouldn't be the first time. I have also cherished scriptures that lept off the page as if penned just for me. I have also looked at a verse and was just amazed to see it for the first time, though I might have known it was there since childhood.

My advice? Leave the boards for awhile and spend the time with just you and the Lord. Read ALL the Bible before scrutinizing it. Just pray & read. Ask God your questions and see how HE responds. As HIM about your baby? Don't listen to the debates; listen to God speak to your heart. Those verses you mention? Maybe that was God speaking to you.

I have enjoyed sharing with you emeraldgirl. I am so sorry for your hurt & anger and appreciate your openness. I will remember you in my prayers. I wish I had more time 'cause I have a book to write about our experience with our son beginning with his rebellion against us and God and including how God brought him close in HIS embrace through a terrible disease. Today, my son's future look bright and ALL the glory goes to God.

May the Lord Bless you richly,

Wayne

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, your posts reveal the precise arrogant disgust and presumption that offends me so much in Christianity. You sound just like I did in 1999 when I flamed a Gnostic Christian into oblivion because she dared to call herself a Christian one minute and the next say she didn't believe we were born in sin and the Bible was errant. (I wish I could find this gentle, kind, intelligent woman again to offer my deepest apology.)

The problem is that my posts reveal a level of honesty that you don't want to face up to. You act as if your questions belong to you, and they don't. You are not the only one who has ever asked those questions or had those same kinds of initial doubts. The difference is that we looked for answers. We did not just assume because we did not get the answers when we wanted them, or that the answers were not to our liking, that we should just give up.

My posts demonstrate a person who has had the same questions you did, but approached them a lot more intellectual honesty, and they demonstrate someone who found satisfying answers. Not everyone who has had the same doubts you had arrived at the same place. The truth is that there are answers to your doubts, but you need to at least approach the Bible in an honest fashion, IF you are truly seeking answers.

People try to manufacture contradictions and try to find find fault with God because they want salve their conscience. They fish for reasons to reject God. Their questions are not really "questions." They are really nothing more than petty attacks on God's character in attempt to justify their hatred of God. They don't want answers, and all they can think to do with their hatred of God is jump on a board like this and take it out Christians in attempt to shipwreck our faith. Misery loves company.

Your questions are not the bold, earth shattering mysteries that you would like to pretend they are. I have been on this board for three years, and every so often we have people just like you throwing out the same warmed over stew, recycling the same tired questions over and over again. You are not the first, and you will not be the last.

So far, you have made objections, but do not offer any substantive repsonses as to why what I have said is wrong. You simply don't like what has been presented, but you are, at this point, helpess to offer any meaningful refutation. It is only appears as arrogance because I know what I believe, and have been in your shoes. The difference is that I handled it better.

QUOTE

Yes it does. Because God does not desire a race of automatons. He gives every person, the choice.

By the way, Shiloh, have you ever heard of Calvinism? Before Arminianism (sp?), there was only the Calvinistic view, which is that YOU cannot CHOOSE Christ. God draws the chosen irrestistably to him. Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Calvinism was never THE singular view prior ot Arminianism. While the views of Arminius might not have been codified into the five points of Arminianism that we have today, they still existed, nonetheless. Calvin's views represent ONE point of view, and are not equivalent to the Bible. Besides, it really does not change anything relative to the fact that the Bible is inerrant. It does not change the fact that Jesus is the only way to God. It does not change the fact that God's love in unconditional.

[Guest shiloh357]

Sylvan's views encapsulate my own thoughts well. Unconditional/conditional love is precisely the context I've considered it in. Because I am a mother and I don't require retribution for my children's mistakes;

Neither does God. When Jesus was on the cross, He bore ALL of God's hatred for sin. He took upon Himself all of God's retribution for sin. He took all of the punishment, all of the pain, all of the wrath. Every ounce of God's judgement on sin was hurled squarely at Jesus, who did not deserve any of it.

So God is not requiring retribution at all. The retribution has been paid, and God's justice has been satisfied. Neither you nor Sylvan really understand what you are criticizing, and so you offer analogies that really don't fit the biblical model. It not arrogant or "flaming" of me to point that out. There is no way to a real debate if both sides do not have a good grasp of what the Bible is really saying.

You are trying to argue on the basis what you THINK the Bible is saying, and so is Sylvan. That is the problem. You don't really understand what the Bible says, and you are crticizing it through the filter of your misunderstanding.

[Ovedya]

Emeraldgirl,

I haven't read any of the other responses, so please forgive me if my answers are redundant:

* It is not possible for all people to even know about Christ, or have a Bible, or understand a Bible, so how can this be the requirement for salvation?

Well, to begin with, the Bible is not a requirement for salvation. Nowhere int he bible will you find a verse or verses that tell believers to have a Bible to be saved. What is essential for salvation is having the life of God. As far as all people knowing about Christ, the more we become connectedthrough the various means of media, the more the gospel is being spread. There will be a day when all mankind will know of the salvation of Jesus Christ; and they will either receive Him to their eternal salvation or they will reject him to their peril.

* How can a Christian believe that they have been lucky enough (or chosen, or whatever) to receive *THE* correct information, even while many others also believe it is they who have *THE* correct information? Doesn't this strike you as instantly arrogant?

Well, I for one, would like to know why it is any more arrogant for a Christian to believe that he is saved than someone else who follows another religion to believe that they are saved? Why are Christians being accused of arrogance and the others are not is a question that I would personally like answered.

* What is the purpose of petitionary prayer, if you believe that God's Divine Plan is always good, or always "works together for the good of those who are called according to his purpose"? Why not just say, "Thy will be done. Good night." rolleyes.gif

Ask yourself what the purpose of any prayer is and I trust that you will have the answer. If God's desire is that we contact Him regularly regarding every aspect of our lives, maybe it's not the type of prayer that calls God into action one way or another, but what the action of prayer has upon the believer.

* I have not believed in a literal, burning hell for a few years, but if you do, how can you accept this? Do you know how long "forever" is? Even if I think of someone totally hideous, who epitomizes evil, being tortured *FOREVER* is pretty extreme. But wait! Even those people living in Mali who have never heard of Jesus are supposedly going there, remember? And that extrodinarily philanthropic Jewish lady down the street - yup! She burns forever! If you really believe this, how do you accept this?

I personally believe that "hell" is the absolute and complete anihilation of the soul. But remember that we humans have no concept of what 'eternity" is, and we have no concept of absolute zero either. In other words, eternity is so far our of our understanding that humans cannot even practically express it. Douglas Adams (Author of Hitchiker's guide to the Galaxy) wrote that the universe "...is an unsettlingly big place, a fact which for the sake of a quiet life most people tend to ignore." So one, humans cannot fathom "infinity" and two humans cannot understand zero - or nothingness. Existence is something that humans have always known, and so it is impossible to conceive non-existence. Case-in-point, let he author of eternity decide which punishment is appropriate for those who have disobeyed Him. As a human being I have no right to judge or determine the justness or injustice of something hich I cannot possibly fathom.

[sylvan3]

No, salvation is conditional upon receiving Jesus, but God's love is unconditional. You are confusing the issue. God does not place ANY conditions upon who may or may not get saved if they receive Jesus. Everyone who believes is welcomed by God unconditionally into the family. He does not allow some in and some not. Jesus said, "Him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out." (John 6:37)

I am sorry, but you are attempting to have it both ways, Shiloh. This is like someone saying "you can have this Steelers ticket for free if you give me $100." You would be better off by saying, "God does not place any FURTHER conditions on who or who may not get saved if they follow the INITIAL condition of receiving Jesus." Once again, God, in his omniscience, would know ahead of time (i.e. prior to the person being born) who would not receive Jesus and ultimately be dropped through the trap door on Judgment Day. This is unconditional love? This is justice? Not in my book. It's conditional love and no justice whatsoever for someone who is being honest.

If God said, "I will only love if you go to church, or if you live up to this, or that standard," THEN You could His love is conditional. Apparently, you don't understand how conditional love works. Perhaps you should study your concepts before attempting to use them.

As for studying my concepts, I have been respectful of what might constitute the real truth (in the same vein as Emeraldgirl) for about 45 years--shortly after I stopped believing in Santa Claus when I was about eight.

Whether or not someone else believes or does not believe the Bible "deep down," does not excuse me from believing. It has absolutely no bearing on whether the Bible is true, or not. Frankly, I really don't see any connection between your analogy, and the unconditional love of God.

One can "say" they believe something and do that voluntarily. Whether or not they truly believe something is involuntary and dependent on numerous factors. Do you think God will know the difference on Judgment Day?

God did not create an imperfect world. When God saw all that He had made, on the sixth day, He said it was "very good" which in Hebrew, denotes perfection. Furthermore, it was man's sin that brought imperfection into the world. So as always, you operate from false premises, because you simply don't know what you are talking about. You are trying to criticize the Bible, and you obviously lack the knowledge to even get its foundational teachings straight before you launch into your diatribes against them. At least, if you are going to criticize the Bible, you could at least do us the service of doing some research first and get your facts straight.

Of course he created an imperfect world. He's omniscient--he knew what was going to happen but he created it anyway (I don't think you understand what it means to be omniscient). I don't see where my knowledge that omniscience means knowing what will happen in the future constitutes false pretenses.

Nothing of wht you have complained about thus far is required for anyone to avoid hell. One does not have to have all of their theology correct in order to be saved. Being saved has nothing to do with what denomination you belong to. All that is required is that you believe on Jesus Christ. It simply amounts to acknowledging that you are a sinner, and that you repent of your sin and believe that Jesus died, was buried and rose again on the third day. It does not get any simpler than that. Perhaps if you would bother to learn what the Bible says about salvation first, then we can discuss what it is about this free gift you have a problem with accepting for yourself.

I don't know how you are so sure about what you are saying. You seem to think that you know what God will be thinking on Judgment Day. I think a lot of people of other denominations might disagree with you. Just my opinion...

No the problem lies with your lack of research and the fact that you do not have a clear grasp on what the Bible says in the first place. You have no business criticizing the Bible, if you are not going to at least bother to study it, and be intellectually honest about what it says.

I know the Bible says the following: (please enlighten me as to the rationality of this)

Deut 25:11-12

11 If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, 12you shall cut off her hand; show no pity.

or

Deut 21:18-21

18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. 20They shall say to the elders of his town,

[emeraldgirl]

You act as if your questions belong to you, and they don't. You are not the only one who has ever asked those questions or had those same kinds of initial doubts.

That's presumption. I never said, imagined or dreamed that my questions were unique. I have been studying the apologetics on them for decades.

The difference is that we looked for answers. We did not just assume because we did not get the answers when we wanted them, or that the answers were not to our liking, that we should just give up.

That's arrogant presumption. What do you know of how much I've looked, or how I like the answers?

My posts demonstrate a person who has had the same questions you did, but approached them a lot more intellectual honesty, and they demonstrate someone who found satisfying answers.

More arrogant presumption. I'm thrilled you found satisfying answers. Pride goes before a fall, as the scripture goes. I hope your fall is not too tragic.

The truth is that there are answers to your doubts, but you need to at least approach the Bible in an honest fashion, IF you are truly seeking answers.

And yet you can't give them to me. It's more enjoyable to insult me and any others who ask the hard questions.

People try to manufacture contradictions and try to find find fault with God because they want salve their conscience.

If I wanted salve for my conscience, I would just shrug and "believe". I could just say, "Oh well, Christ died for my sins." And how could someone manufacture a scripture that can be looked up with my own eyes? If someone says "this scripture says this and that scripture says that", how is that "manufactured", if I can look for myself and see that it does say that?

They fish for reasons to reject God. Their questions are not really "questions." They are really nothing more than petty attacks on God's character in attempt to justify their hatred of God. They don't want answers, and all they can think to do with their hatred of God is jump on a board like this and take it out Christians in attempt to shipwreck our faith. Misery loves company.

More arrogant presumption. I don't hate God, I love God. I wish every person well in their journey of faith; I wouldn't dream of trying to persuade someone to deconversion. I can only speak for myself, but *I* am here, asking these questions as one last attempt to salvage my faith! If I didn't care about the faith, there would be no reason to ask or to wonder. I could just go, "Oh well, the Christian thing didn't pan out. Might as well be something else." I ask the questions because I'm tormented by them.

Your questions are not the bold, earth shattering mysteries that you would like to pretend they are. I have been on this board for three years, and every so often we have people just like you throwing out the same warmed over stew, recycling the same tired questions over and over again. You are not the first, and you will not be the last.

I have no idea why you say this. Hardly do I think I'm asking some unique question only I have ever thought of. I never claimed it! Maybe you're just tired of offering up the same warmed over answers that your church Apologetics teacher told you to say. If you despise reading the questions so much, why not just go off into Inner Court where I'm not allowed to post? Then you can shield yourself from my tired old questions. If the answers were as simple as you say, millions of people wouldn't be asking them year after year.

So far, you have made objections, but do not offer any substantive repsonses as to why what I have said is wrong. You simply don't like what has been presented, but you are, at this point, helpess to offer any meaningful refutation.

I, unlike you, am not out to proove you or anyone else "wrong". Believe whatever you want to believe; I don't care a bit. What is it you think I should be refuting?

It is only appears as arrogance because I know what I believe, and have been in your shoes. The difference is that I handled it better.

More insufferable arrogance, Shiloh. First, I doubt you have been in my shoes, because you would not be so crass. Life would have humbled you by now.

You are trying to argue on the basis what you THINK the Bible is saying, and so is Sylvan. That is the problem.

Oh, yes, I forgot I was speaking to The Oracle Who Knows All Things. If the Bible can't be understood by us simpletons, then I guess too bad for me.

[emeraldgirl]

I think this is where we differ emeraldgirl. I am a father of two adult sons. I love my sons deeply, which is why I allow them to suffer the consequences of their wrong choices. Sure I am there for them but they must repent of their bad choice. For many, they need to touch a hot stove to experience the burn ignoring every and all warning.

Touching the hot stove is a logical consequence; this is not what I'm talking about. Whipping them after they burned their hand is retribution, and that is what I'm talking about. If they burned their hand for not heeding my warning, oh well - I am sad they were burned, but I warned them. But I would not "add" anything to it because they didn't heed my warning - the consequence came to them without any help from me.

Before a person can effectively discipline, they have to be effectively disciplined and learn self-discipline. Now when a child refuses correction and continues to go down a destructive path, what would you do? When they refuse to acknowledge you and will not speak to you, what will you do? When they have completely rejected you, how will you respond?

Discipline means "to teach" - same root as disciple and that is how I discipline effectively. My children are 9, 7 and 1, so I don't know what I would do in all imaginable circumstances. But so far, keeping the "teach" model uppermost in my mind has been the best in all possible ways.

It is Jesus washing the feet of HIS betrayer. It is Jesus pleading for the Father to forgive those who nailed HIM to a Cross. It is Jesus gently reinstating a repentant Peter after he had denided Christ 3 times. It is Jesus willingly laying down HIS life for you and me when we still HIS enemies. That is divine perfect love. It isn't just loving a child.

I agree; those things are Divine Love. What I meant by loving a child was this: When I had my first child (and a colick-ridden child, besides), it struck me how strange it was that I could love this person so totally when she had nothing at all to offer me. She woke me up, she made me tired, she made my body hurt, she cried without abatement for hours and I had to do every single thing for her. But I loved her so fiercly I would have died in her place if needed. That is what I meant. It made me think, for the first time in my life, "This must be a hint of how God loves us." Because compared to God's perfection, we would have to be like little infants; imperfect, needy and self-centered.

you have never read the Bible in its entirety?

I was thinking of doing this. I have read through long portions in it's entirety, but not the entire book from G to R.

I have enjoyed sharing with you emeraldgirl. I am so sorry for your hurt & anger and appreciate your openness. I will remember you in my prayers. I wish I had more time 'cause I have a book to write about our experience with our son beginning with his rebellion against us and God and including how God brought him close in HIS embrace through a terrible disease. Today, my son's future look bright and ALL the glory goes to God.

I enjoy talking to you, Wayne. You're the "real thing".

You know, if it's not insensitive to ask - and maybe you can't really imagine - but what do you think you would feel if after all you've gone through, your son does die? What if you went to see him tomorrow and he's just lifeless in his bed? I don't mean to entertain cruel thoughts - I'm relating it to myself. I really did think my life could not be one shred better before my daughter died. I was all praise to God for bringing me through fertility challenges. I was all praise to God for other things that seemed to be standing in the way of having another child. But the rug was pulled out from under me in a way I could never have imagined. So, it's once bitten, twice shy. I feel like I've done the Trust God thing and boy did He blow it.

[emeraldgirl]

Well, to begin with, the Bible is not a requirement for salvation. Nowhere int he bible will you find a verse or verses that tell believers to have a Bible to be saved. What is essential for salvation is having the life of God. As far as all people knowing about Christ, the more we become connectedthrough the various means of media, the more the gospel is being spread. There will be a day when all mankind will know of the salvation of Jesus Christ; and they will either receive Him to their eternal salvation or they will reject him to their peril.

What I mean by this is that the information contained in the Bible is pertinent if you must understand certain things about Jesus and believe them to be saved. See, one thing that has attracted me to Deism is that all people throughout time and the world have access to two things: the Creation (or nature), and moral conscience. All people develop a conscience and know what is wrong and right. Doing right generally makes people feel good and doing wrong generall makes people feel bad. So, if you had no knowledge about any religious book or church or whatever, the natural thing you would be able to do is look at the wonderous creation and say, "This is good. Whomever or Whatever is behind this is what I want." Oh, and I also think people have an inate longing for God (or some Supreme Being, IYKWIM).

Well, I for one, would like to know why it is any more arrogant for a Christian to believe that he is saved than someone else who follows another religion to believe that they are saved? Why are Christians being accused of arrogance and the others are not is a question that I would personally like answered.

Personally, I don't feel that way. I think they ALL are arrogant! It's just that this is not a Muslim board, or a Hindu board, or a Morman board...We're talking about Christianity here. The very point you mention is part of the folly to me - everyone thinks they have "the revelation" and maybe none of them do. I'm just surmising, but from what I've read, I think a lot of Atheists believe this, too - that all are equally arrogant in this respect.

Ask yourself what the purpose of any prayer is and I trust that you will have the answer. If God's desire is that we contact Him regularly regarding every aspect of our lives, maybe it's not the type of prayer that calls God into action one way or another, but what the action of prayer has upon the believer.

I don't know...I tried to do this when I was pregnant and it seemed very useless. On the one hand, I wanted to pray that I would have a healthy baby this time. But then I felt bound to the possibility that that is not God's will - he let one baby die, why not two? I couldn't pray for God's will to happen if the possibility included that - it wouldn't be honest! I can't honestly pray, "I hope for a healthy baby this time, but God, whatever is your will." Because it just was not true! I really did only want a healthy baby. If I got something else, then okay, but not because I told God it was really okay and that I would accept whatever, dead or alive baby, anything is fine. I know, that's probably an overanalysis, and maybe that particular part of my life wasn't really something I could pray about in a meaningful way. But then, it kind of all comes down to this. We can't just "chat" with God - well, we could, but he's not going to chat back. People say that, that prayer is conversation with God, but it's really not. It's one-way only.

The only sort of prayer that makes any sense to me is a kind of meditation. It improves the meditator.

I personally believe that "hell" is the absolute and complete anihilation of the soul.

I believe this, too.