How can a God of love allow stoning as a death penalty ?

[EricH]

One cannot understand a miracle, or it would not be a miracle. Some friends of mine have a teenage son who was transformed overnight from an indolent, surly, troublesome person into a pleasant and helpful one. They with a little humour called that a 'miracle', but they well understood what had happened to their son in conversion, which is a well-defined change of mental state with cause and effect. It is a change that Christians and non-Christians need to consider more closely than often they do, imv, and labelling it a miracle is unlikely to help, I think.

We will have to disagree

[pointer]

One cannot understand a miracle, or it would not be a miracle. Some friends of mine have a teenage son who was transformed overnight from an indolent, surly, troublesome person into a pleasant and helpful one. They with a little humour called that a 'miracle', but they well understood what had happened to their son in conversion, which is a well-defined change of mental state with cause and effect. It is a change that Christians and non-Christians need to consider more closely than often they do, imv, and labelling it a miracle is unlikely to help, I think.

We will have to disagree

We will have to agree if we are to be obedient to the Spirit.

[EricH]

One cannot understand a miracle, or it would not be a miracle. Some friends of mine have a teenage son who was transformed overnight from an indolent, surly, troublesome person into a pleasant and helpful one. They with a little humour called that a 'miracle', but they well understood what had happened to their son in conversion, which is a well-defined change of mental state with cause and effect. It is a change that Christians and non-Christians need to consider more closely than often they do, imv, and labelling it a miracle is unlikely to help, I think.

We will have to disagree

We will have to agree if we are to be obedient to the Spirit.

PLease do not side track this discussion. Thanks, the moderators

[pointer]

One cannot understand a miracle, or it would not be a miracle. Some friends of mine have a teenage son who was transformed overnight from an indolent, surly, troublesome person into a pleasant and helpful one. They with a little humour called that a 'miracle', but they well understood what had happened to their son in conversion, which is a well-defined change of mental state with cause and effect. It is a change that Christians and non-Christians need to consider more closely than often they do, imv, and labelling it a miracle is unlikely to help, I think.

We will have to disagree

We will have to agree if we are to be obedient to the Spirit.

PLease do not side track this discussion.

It was you that did that. If you have nothing to say, say nothing.

Edited July 19, 2006 by pointer

[sylvan3]

If you put no limits on God's ability, do you have any idea why he would not give us more evidence of his existence other than a book that is interpreted in so many different ways? For example, why not proof in the form of answers to prayers in which someone's amputated limb is restored?

This is talked about in the Bible (the question of why God doen't put on a show for us)

For indeed Jews ask for signs, and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:22-24 NASB

The request you are making is nothing new. Some want miraculous signs to validate an experience of God, others want other-worldly wisdom. But God has chosen not to use either of these methods to reveal Himself. Rather He has chosen to reveal himself in His Son, and the news that relationship with God is available to those who will believe. That is where God's power and Wisdom is most clearly demonstrated. We need to make our decisions based on that alone.

In the book of Daniel, two of Daniel's friends were arrested for refusing to fall down and worship an image of King Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar offered them an out, if they would just obey the order in his seeing. His final statement was that no one could deliver then from the fire he was going to place them into. Here is how they responded:

Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego answered and said to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter. If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up."

Daniel 3:16-18 NASB

That is the kind of faith God wants. Not faith that is dependent on the latest miracle. But rather one that trusts in God's character regardless of the circumstances. Whether God resued them or not, their faith did not waver in His goodness or ability to save

The problem with God going on a road show, is it will never be enough. We see over and over in the Bible, how God would perform miracles, and people would attempt to explain them away, or forget them a short time afterwards and ask for bigger and better.

Read Hebrews 11. There were some who received spectacular miracles and some did not. here is what the text says about those who did not and believed anyway:

and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 11:36-40 NASB

I do not think that asking for evidence in the form of something scientifically verifiable is asking too much. After all, this is how we make decisions in our everyday lives.

For example, if a manufacturer came forth saying that a given product would do a certain thing, we would want evidence to back up the claim. In the absence of that evidence, most people would understandably reject the claims of the manufacturer. I do not see where religion should be different, but I realize others have a different point of view.

However, what is unreasonable about putting these verses to the test?:

(Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)

And Jesus answered and said to them, 'Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

or

(John 14:13-14 NAB)

"And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it".

Wouldn't asking for certain things in prayer, such as restoring an amputated limb, fall under this category?

[pointer]

I do not think that asking for evidence in the form of something scientifically verifiable is asking too much. After all, this is how we make decisions in our everyday lives.

For example, if a manufacturer came forth saying that a given product would do a certain thing, we would want evidence to back up the claim. In the absence of that evidence, most people would understandably reject the claims of the manufacturer. I do not see where religion should be different, but I realize others have a different point of view.

However, what is unreasonable about putting these verses to the test?:

(Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)

And Jesus answered and said to them, 'Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

or

(John 14:13-14 NAB)

"And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it".

Wouldn't asking for certain things in prayer, such as restoring an amputated limb, fall under this category?

Probably not. God does not want it known that his followers can get unfair advantage over non-followers. Christians have the same life conditions as others, most of the time, and it is right that this is seen to be so.

Those who commit their lives to Christ produce the fruits of the Spirit- peace that the world cannot give, inexpressible joy, self-control, willingness to forgive, usefulness, reliability, patience, generosity, kindness and love. Those are much more precious and practical than anything one can buy in a shop other than the necessities of biological life.

Edited July 19, 2006 by pointer

[sylvan3]

I do not think that asking for evidence in the form of something scientifically verifiable is asking too much. After all, this is how we make decisions in our everyday lives.

For example, if a manufacturer came forth saying that a given product would do a certain thing, we would want evidence to back up the claim. In the absence of that evidence, most people would understandably reject the claims of the manufacturer. I do not see where religion should be different, but I realize others have a different point of view.

However, what is unreasonable about putting these verses to the test?:

(Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)

And Jesus answered and said to them, 'Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

or

(John 14:13-14 NAB)

"And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it".

Wouldn't asking for certain things in prayer, such as restoring an amputated limb, fall under this category?

Probably not. God does not want it known that his followers can get unfair advantage over non-followers. Christians have the same life conditions as others, most of the time, and it is right that this is seen to be so.

Those who commit their lives to Christ produce the fruits of the Spirit- peace that the world cannot give, inexpressible joy, self-control, willingness to forgive, usefulness, reliability, patience, generosity, kindness and love. Those are much more precious and practical than anything one can buy in a shop other than the necessities of biological life.

I find it to be a baffling possibility that God would not want it known that his followers would get an unfair advantage over non-believers. I don't see where following through with scriptures has anything to do with unfair advantages. Why would the scriptures that I quoted even be mentioned in the Bible if that were the case? They clearly don't state that, "anything you ask for in my name, I will do it (unless it might give the impression of unfairness to believers)".

I would think that consistency with scripture trumps any disadvantages because of perceived unfair advantages to believers.

[pointer]

I do not think that asking for evidence in the form of something scientifically verifiable is asking too much. After all, this is how we make decisions in our everyday lives.

For example, if a manufacturer came forth saying that a given product would do a certain thing, we would want evidence to back up the claim. In the absence of that evidence, most people would understandably reject the claims of the manufacturer. I do not see where religion should be different, but I realize others have a different point of view.

However, what is unreasonable about putting these verses to the test?:

(Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)

And Jesus answered and said to them, 'Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

or

(John 14:13-14 NAB)

"And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it".

Wouldn't asking for certain things in prayer, such as restoring an amputated limb, fall under this category?

Probably not. God does not want it known that his followers can get unfair advantage over non-followers. Christians have the same life conditions as others, most of the time, and it is right that this is seen to be so.

Those who commit their lives to Christ produce the fruits of the Spirit- peace that the world cannot give, inexpressible joy, self-control, willingness to forgive, usefulness, reliability, patience, generosity, kindness and love. Those are much more precious and practical than anything one can buy in a shop other than the necessities of biological life.

I find it to be a baffling possibility that God would not want it known that his followers would get an unfair advantage over non-believers. I don't see where following through with scriptures has anything to do with unfair advantages. Why would the scriptures that I quoted even be mentioned in the Bible if that were the case? They clearly don't state that, "anything you ask for in my name, I will do it (unless it might give the impression of unfairness to believers)".

I would think that consistency with scripture trumps any disadvantages because of perceived unfair advantages to believers.

There is no inconsistency. The clue comes in 'in My name'.

[sylvan3]

Probably not. God does not want it known that his followers can get unfair advantage over non-followers. Christians have the same life conditions as others, most of the time, and it is right that this is seen to be so.

Those who commit their lives to Christ produce the fruits of the Spirit- peace that the world cannot give, inexpressible joy, self-control, willingness to forgive, usefulness, reliability, patience, generosity, kindness and love. Those are much more precious and practical than anything one can buy in a shop other than the necessities of biological life.

I find it to be a baffling possibility that God would not want it known that his followers would get an unfair advantage over non-believers. I don't see where following through with scriptures has anything to do with unfair advantages. Why would the scriptures that I quoted even be mentioned in the Bible if that were the case? They clearly don't state that, "anything you ask for in my name, I will do it (unless it might give the impression of unfairness to believers)".

I would think that consistency with scripture trumps any disadvantages because of perceived unfair advantages to believers.

There is no inconsistency. The clue comes in 'in My name'.

Even if, "in My name", would reconcile the inconsistency that you say--and I don't see where it does--Matthew 21:21-22 does not use that phrase.

It still seems to me that those phrases could easily be interpreted to mean that anything--bar nothing--could be asked for in prayer and it would be granted.

[Fool-4-Christ]

I do believe the Bible litterally from cover to cover - Genesis to Revelation, that it is the word of God a divine revelation of Himself to man. I have found it to be axiomatic = "self-evident" and not needing proof. You see Sylvan the burden of proof is on you. I live by faith.

This response is to LNJ and Fool-4-Christ.

I think we can agree that faith does not equal fact. Establishing something as fact is not easy. The Bible contains many extraordinary claims that, in the absence of extraordinary evidence, can only be believed on faith. I understand that this faith may be real for you. It is still faith.

I also have faith. However, my faith is that the Bible is not inerrant and that 950-year-old men and talking snakes (among other extraordinary claims) did not exist. I have faith that there isn't a God who is going to create a world in which people who don't "think" a certain way will perish in hell for eternity.

Therefore, you can say that your faith is legitimate. That's fine; it may be legitimate for you. However, I can also say that my faith is legitimate.

Sylvan,

Come on you can do better than that, can't you? You didn't even have the courtesy to answer my original four questions. Are you really looking to have a logical debate or are you just wanting to rant about a God that you do not believe exists?

I am really doing my best to pose a logical discussion, but I am unsure of your motivations.

I've already answered the arguement about God punishing people because they "don't think a certain way".

Man is sent to Hell not because he doesn't believe in/have faith in Jesus but rather because he is a sinner. It is our sin that sends us to Hell. We lie, we steal, we lust, it is our transgression of God's moral law , the decalouge, (The 10 C's) that condems us not "belief" in Christ.

Thinking/believing/faith won't save anyone:

James 2:18-20

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Here we see the demons believe and guess what? They Aren't Saved!

Matthew 25:41

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

I would also asume that you have faith that we came from monkey men as well? (please address this question in your response too) How absurd that you would hold Christians to a higher standard than yourself. You are able to have faith but we are not? You see the point I'm trying to make is that when you make a statement like this:

Therefore, you can say that your faith is legitimate. That's fine; it may be legitimate for you. However, I can also say that my faith is legitimate.

It is highly illogical. It can't be "fine" our two faiths are diametrically opposed. One of us has to be wrong. It's like if I were to look up into the sky and say, hey the sky is blue" and then you look into the same sky and say, "Hey the sky is grey", we both can't be right and in all actuallity the sky is clear. No matter what we believe our opinions don't change the truth.

Can you say I'm wrong? I can confidently say that, Sylvan you are wrong, not only wrong but dead wrong.

And like I said before it is not my job to convince you that the Bible is true, only God can do that. My prayer is that God will grant you "saving faith" and that, faith is a gift from God. It is nothing that in all of our reasoning, in all of our debating, in all of our simple logic we will ever be able to create or conjure up from within ourselves. It is of God.

Ephesians 2:8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I pray that like Lydia your heart is opened to the Gospel...

Acts 16:14

One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.

I think Mark Twain said it best: "It's not the things that we don't understand about the Bible that we have issue with but, rather the things that we do understand!"

Sylvan try with a tender canscience holding yourself up to the light of God's Ten Comandments and see how you make out. You are in need of God's mercy, His grace, His Son. Again I urge you to cry out to Him in Repentence and put your trust in His redemptive work on the cross. Harden not your heart...

Hebrews 3:7-9

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

Hebrews 3:15

While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Hebrews 4:7

Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

I again look forward to your response,

Paul Kaiser

P.S. Pointer - Your question makes no logical sense - I stated up front that I have come to understand the Bible to be Axiomatic (look up the term if you are unfamiliar with it)...

P.P.S Pointer - Are you a "Christian"? It seems at times that you yourself doubt the sufficency of Scripture? This is not ment to be divicive but a question for clarity - Please forgive me if offence is taken....

Edited July 20, 2006 by Fool-4-Christ