Question for Atheists/Agnostics/non-Christians...what troubles you?

[pamjane]

The kind of thing that makes me speculate on the idea of god or gods existing is stuff like beauty. We all have little things that tug at us because they're simple, or true, or beautiful; I can't see where we'd find the need to evolve that sense, or why. I get a sense sometimes that there's this amazing rhythm or profundity to things, and that makes me wonder.

mmm... very nice. i agree with this.

also, for me, i can understand how we might evolve a sense of morality for the sake of forming human societies. however, if our sense of "right" and "wrong" has been evolved, then why would we continually have an inner war between being loving, kind, honest, brave, unselfish and being the opposite of all that society esteems?

[pamjane]

hello i in fact am an Atheist and what brings me to not worship under your beliefs is that i cannot fathom how one simple bieng could create this entire universe or that there cannot be one other single life form in all of space. also how could such and ever-loving god send things he "created" to a place to suffer for all eternity that have NO idea what your lord/saviour is. what kind of justice is that? how could he send a human to hell for not seeing it his way? isnt that what the communists did? if a person speaks badly of the leader they kill them? When a child is born he/she has no idea of these beliefs and he/she should die right after birth he/she goes to hell because he/she hadnt heard of your way? I ask why would your loving, just, god do this?

i just wanted to let you know that i'm not ignoring your post; i am, however, choosing to not answer those questions in this thread. i'm just interested in seeing what kinds of things cause nonchristians to doubt their unbelief.

i'm sure some folks here would be happy to answer your questions if you create another topic for them.

[gekko]

secondeve and emeraldgirl - you have some very interesting points - again - i'll take those to thought.

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i want to point something out here: take it as you wish:

you said:

not a single one of whom - despite their convictions - can resolutely prove to another what happens when they die.

you are correct. nobody can prove it. even those who claim to have died - supposedly went to heaven - but then was sent back. (which of course i find rediculous)

but if - IF there is a heaven and a hell - just imagine IF there was - would you want to take the chance in going to hell? not many would. i mean... its a lake of fire. would you take that chance?

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now you've asked if i could share with you, secondeve, how i could prove to you there is a God - you can take it any way you want. im not you.

now im not going to prove to you that the God of us christians is the true God - or that the god of hinduism is false.

im not trying to do that.

all im going to try and do for you is try to prove to you that there is a God. that's it. without using scripture - without using faith - without using religion.

take into account that evolution is not science - it is theory - and has not been proven t

hat you came from dirt. which is what it comes down to.

evolution is essentially a religion - because its a theory.

anyways.

here goes - take it as you wish - please provide feedback:

if you live in a city - take a look at a large building. now - how do you know if someone built that building? did it just somehow appear after hundreds of years? no. how do you know if there was a builder of that building? the building is proof that there is a builder - you can't see the builder at the moment - but you know that somewhere some builder built that building. its not considered faith that you know a builder built the building - its common sense.

look at paintings - if you like paintings that is. look at a painting. how do you know if there was a painter? well. simple. the painting is proof that there is a painter. did the painting appear after hundreds of years of oil paints mixing together? no. so how do you know if there was a painter? the painting is proof that there is a painter - you can't see the painter at the moment - but you know that somewhere some painter painted that painting. its not condsidered faith that you know a painter painted the painting - its common sense.

now. look at the forests around you - the animals - the plantation/vegetation - the mountains - rivers - oceans etc. how do you know if that creation had a creator? well. simple. the creation is proof that there is a creator. did evolution make everything so precise over hundreds of years? no. how do you know if there was a creator that created this creation? the creation is proof that there is a creator. you can't see that creator - but you know somewhere out there is a creator that created this creation of animals, mountains etc. its not faith that you know there is a creator that created the creation. its common sense.

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what do you think?

[pamjane]

now. look at the forests around you - the animals - the plantation/vegetation - the mountains - rivers - oceans etc. how do you know if that creation had a creator? well. simple. the creation is proof that there is a creator. did evolution make everything so precise over hundreds of years? no. how do you know if there was a creator that created this creation? the creation is proof that there is a creator. you can't see that creator - but you know somewhere out there is a creator that created this creation of animals, mountains etc. its not faith that you know there is a creator that created the creation. its common sense.

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what do you think?

i don't mean to get off topic in my own thread, but whatever.

that we find order, patterns, and beauty in the world does not necessarily mean that there is a creator. perhaps humans are naturally, through evolution, pattern-seeking creatures and that's why we have the illusion of the world being a creation. our minds find patterns in random places: the "man" in the moon, lincoln's head as a potato chip, the virgin mary in the clouds. i recently read of a test where two groups of people played a video game without any instructions being given. when someone from the first group performed a certain action in the game, he was awarded points. the folks in the second group were awarded points arbitrarily. when asked if there was a pattern as to how they earned points, most of the people in the first group correctly identified the pattern. most of the people in the second group, although there was no pattern as to how they earned points, came up with some sort of pattern to attribute their awarded points to.

so maybe we've just evolved into a species that would find a pattern or meaning within any environment we were in.

just a thought.

[sylvan3]

Pamjane--maybe it was just a thought, but it was a powerful thought. Where did you read about that test?

[gekko]

so maybe we've just evolved into a species that would find a pattern or meaning within any environment we were in.

so how did everything start with evolution? millions and millions of years ago with the Big Bang?

where did the big bang come from? some sort of matter that was floating around eventually collided?

where did that come from? etc.

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you could have the same argument against creation - where did that come from etc.

but at least we christians can prove there is a God.

and that we didn't come from dirt. we precise humans evolved from dirt? sounds more illogical then God being the creator.

[EricH]

Do you even know what "scientific theory" means? This is the most embarassing thing I've read on this forum.

Are you both talking about the scientific method??

[gekko]

The real god could be another one. Are you willing to take that chance?

well there's enough proof against the fact that there could be another god that would be the one.

but i wont post that proof because you've probably heard it all before and bashed it all.

Do you even know what "scientific theory" means?

uh yeah i do. im not stupid. which is why everybody (even darwin - who in fact didn't really believe what he taught anyways) labels evolution as a theory - it hasn't been proven. which is what a theory is - and idea of somesort stating a possible explanation of why something has happened.

I know it's been built because I know humans can build buildings

yeah... that's my point...

Second, you might have missed the fact that WHILE BUILDINGS AND PAINTINGS CANNOT REPRODUCE THEMSELVES, ANIMALS AND PLANTS CAN.

uh - what does that have to do with anything?

That you've been brainwashed.

you still havn't proven that.

No, you can't prove God at all.

that's what you say - you can't prove that there ISN'T a God.

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again - you have shown no proof to your argument - i've tried on my end - you've ripped it apart for some reason... and couldn't provide proof to anything you said... (except for my misunderstanding of the big bang theory)

so try again. why dont you try proving that there is no God. hm?

[pamjane]

for some reason i'm not able to post the response i want to post.

Edited July 22, 2006 by pamjane

[billie]

testing 1-2