Predestination

[billie]

This topic's come up a bit in other threads, but I really wanted to focus on it and see if I can get the answers I'm really looking for.

I believe God knows everything, including who will accept the offer of salvation and who won't. So....why did God create people He knew were going to end up in hell?

[Smalcald]

hi Billie,

See Romans 9

13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath

[billie]

I still don't understand. The people who were made for destruction-God uses them to show us His glory?

[Smalcald]

Billie, I don't totally understand either. In fact if I were you I would be very suspicious of anybody who said they could answer your question totally.

All we have from God is scripture. I think the above in Romans 9 says simply this may be a question we really don't get to ask, we are the clay, who are we to talk back to God? Enough that we know God loves us and indeed He is merciful and just. We know that to be true, the rest is a mystery beyond our understanding. CS Lewis speculated that without the ability to reject God, we could never love God in the way God wants us too, it would be a false sort of love, so He took the chance on love. But that was only his speculation, I like the answer but I don

[Guest M4VTV&H]

If God were to of known that from the brginning when He created Adam and Eve that they were going to condemn humanity than we could say the God put forth in motion the events that are currently seen in the world. If God knew that Satan was going to turn evil than why create him in the beginning? (1 John 4:8) states "God is Love". Willingly creating Satan knowing that he would cause so much pain is not something God would purposely do. That is not a demonstration of love. However we can see in (Isa. 11:1-3) that God knew in what line Jesus would be born. This shows us that God choses when He wants to know the future. (Gene 3:14-15) shows us from what point in time God knew he would send Jesus down to earth. Before this earlier in time when God was creating the universe God did not know that He would have to send down Christ. So we can say that God respects every living soul and not foresees every event in their lives unless it interferes with His master plan for the earth.

Cheers

[billie]

So...you're saying God chooses when He wants to know the future....I don't know...

[Smalcald]

No, God knows, in fact God IS Christ along with the Holy Spirit, and His purpose was and is established from eternity without beginning or end.

You will never get a solid answer billie.

[SoliDeoGloria4708]

I still don't understand. The people who were made for destruction-God uses them to show us His glory?

I think the first thing we need to understand, is that none are worthy of God's love. If God decides to give us what we justly deserve, we would all burn in hell. That would be our due wages. Death. We are all underneath this curse of sin. Not one of us can commit a truly righteous act. We are slaves to sin. In our sinful preregenerate state, before salvation, not one of us could even desire God. Why would we? We are a selfish evil race, that would normally run from a God who demands you to become dead unto yourself. God demands us to give up our old self. Why would anyone become a Christian? It is only because of God convicting our hearts and sovereignly saving us. We have NO part in our own salvation. As sinful humans, we are not capable of coming to God on our own power. If we became Christians because of a "choice" we made, then wouldn't that be salvation by works? When it comes to Romans 9 and other "hard" scriptures, we just have to face the fact that we are not made for our own pleasure, but for God's. I know it's hard to let go of the idea that we humans aren't in control. But when you think about it, why would WE be in control, when their's a God like our God.

Isaiah 64

"6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,

and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;

we all shrivel up like a leaf,

and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

7 No one calls on your name

or strives to lay hold of you;

for you have hidden your face from us

and made us waste away because of our sins. "

[Smalcald]

I still don't understand. The people who were made for destruction-God uses them to show us His glory?

I think the first thing we need to understand, is that none are worthy of God's love. If God decides to give us what we justly deserve, we would all burn in hell. That would be our due wages. Death. We are all underneath this curse of sin. Not one of us can commit a truly righteous act. We are slaves to sin. In our sinful preregenerate state, before salvation, not one of us could even desire God. Why would we? We are a selfish evil race, that would normally run from a God who demands you to become dead unto yourself. God demands us to give up our old self. Why would anyone become a Christian? It is only because of God convicting our hearts and sovereignly saving us. We have NO part in our own salvation. As sinful humans, we are not capable of coming to God on our own power. If we became Christians because of a "choice" we made, then wouldn't that be salvation by works? When it comes to Romans 9 and other "hard" scriptures, we just have to face the fact that we are not made for our own pleasure, but for God's. I know it's hard to let go of the idea that we humans aren't in control. But when you think about it, why would WE be in control, when their's a God like our God.

Isaiah 64

"6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,

and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;

we all shrivel up like a leaf,

and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

7 No one calls on your name

or strives to lay hold of you;

for you have hidden your face from us

and made us waste away because of our sins. "

[billie]

I'm not trying to say that we humans are in control.