Witnessing

[Anne]

Hi dood,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. However - your answers have left me a bit puzzled and I think I'm even more curious now!! Okay if you could answer another couple of questions in response?

1. So, you believe in God AND a 'higher power'?

2. Okay.

3. Are you here to further your understanding of God?

4. Okay.

God Bless.

I have the impression you want me to answer #1 and #3? Feel free to ask anything.

1. So, you believe in God AND a 'higher power'?

Short answer yes. Longer answer. Let me use a physical metaphor that somewhat lines up with the general understanding of scripture.

You and your spouse care about each other. But you have a debate and got on each other nerves a little. You live in the same house but don't feel like talking to each other for a bit. The union is still there, but there are problems that need to be worked out. Once it is aventually worked out. Everything will be great again.

I see the same thing with God and people. We all just turned our backs on each other I think. But you can only hold the cold shoulder for so long. I know of no one capable of a pernament grudge. Or sticking to a sin for eternity.

3. Are you here to further your understanding of God?

No not really. I can see that as a secondairy thing as I do take interest in it. I think the primary reason I'm here is because I had some things I wish to understand better in regards to the bible.

For arguements sake lets say all the different bibles are 98% the same it's the same teachings, same moses, same jesus, same apostilies the other differences are small.

Now you take 10 people and ask them there beliefs which is suppose to be on a bible that is 98% the same.

#1 says Once Saved always saved, #2 says you don't have to confess but live a good life through good works. #3 says hell is temporary. #4 says hell is forever. #5 blames satan for everything #6 blames people in general #7 believes demons are running around tempting people. #8 believes it is the human imagination that are the demons. #9 believes you can pray away serious medical illness's. #10 says there will be a rapture

These are all major disagrements that for the most part should be answerable from the bible. I saw this and I also saw the source for this information hasn't changed. If the source hasn't changed, then who changed the end result and why? The people must of I figured. Meanwhile all the believers with these different views still maintain they are correct, because they believe in god and his guidance. I for the most part agree, but not completely.

The source is solid and unchanged. You would think the views would be solid and simular. The views have a general likeness that comes through everyone's faith in god I think, but the end results in the views on many major/critical subjects jump to the extremes end of the spectrum from one and another.

So I ask myself. How can this possibly be. I want to know. In doing so or finding out It seems like it would make my personal understanding of both human nature and god one step stronger.

Sorry again dood, I just read back on some of the things you've been discussing with "Trib", and you have said something which is very striking and true that I just had to say amen!

You said, "The source is solid and unchanged. You would think the views would be solid and similar. The views have a general likness............................." Earlier you said " If the source hasn't changed, then who changed the end result and why?"

A very interesting thought to contemplate I think.

[Anne]

Why ya at me that makes me want to at you

No offence taken regarding the Tree of Knowledge point, I'll scoot back over it and then see what was missed..........or you could make life easier and tell me what I missed Ah go on, you know you want to.

[Fiosh]

Please pardon the interuption, dood.

But, in skimming thru this thread, I didn't see this addressed: Jesus didn't just leave us with the Bible; He left us the Church.

Obviously, when men attempt to interpret the Bible on their own, we see that the result is usually sheer confusion ,and often conflict.

We need to look to the Church for guidance in how to correctly interpret Scripture. I believe that is the anchor that you seek.

Go back to your roots, dood. You were on the right track in the beginning.

Peace,

Fiosh

[Anne]

Anne:

Well thank you. No need to rush in replies lol. I have some free time lately myself so I

[Tribulation]

Hi again dood,

Short answer yes. Longer answer. Let me use a physical metaphor that somewhat lines up with the general understanding of scripture.

You and your spouse care about each other. But you have a debate and got on each other nerves a little. You live in the same house but don't feel like talking to each other for a bit. The union is still there, but there are problems that need to be worked out. Once it is aventually worked out. Everything will be great again.

I see the same thing with God and people. We all just turned our backs on each other I think. But you can only hold the cold shoulder for so long. I know of no one capable of a pernament grudge. Or sticking to a sin for eternity.

So, are you saying you've turned your back on God - and he's turned his back on you? If so, why?

I can see that as a secondairy thing as I do take interest in it. I think the primary reason I'm here is because I had some things I wish to understand better in regards to the bible.

Fair enough - I hope you do gain better understanding of the bible - that's partly why I'm here too!

Now you take 10 people and ask them there beliefs which is suppose to be on a bible that is 98% the same.

#1 says Once Saved always saved, #2 says you don't have to confess but live a good life through good works. #3 says hell is temporary. #4 says hell is forever. #5 blames satan for everything #6 blames people in general #7 believes demons are running around tempting people. #8 believes it is the human imagination that are the demons. #9 believes you can pray away serious medical illness's. #10 says there will be a rapture

These are all major disagrements that for the most part should be answerable from the bible. I saw this and I also saw the source for this information hasn't changed. If the source hasn't changed, then who changed the end result and why?

That's a very valid point and question dood! To be honest - I think that this problem has deepened since the death of Christ and the establishment of the Church and I feel this problem will only get deeper as we head towards the end times. I dare to say that - nearly every day a 'new religion' is created.

Now, maybe you'll not agree with me - but my belief is that through the years the devil has used the same trick over and over again of splitting the church into more and more branches.

I believe he works in people's minds and puts questions and proposals to them. e.g. 'Do you think that a God of Love can really get that angry with his people - is my minister really teaching the right thing? Maybe it's time to start looking for another church which talks about God loving his people?'. I also believes that he works on those who are weaker in their faith - tempting them into going to churches where they won't be convicted of the sin that they don't want to give up.

I mean, even locally, I know of a church that basically says - 'do whatever you like, (drink, smoke, drugs etc..) as long as you ask Jesus for forgiveness afterwards - then what's the problem?!'. And I know that this church has tempted many people into it's doors - because of it's weak attitude to dealing with sin. People (along with the temptations of the devil) will believe whatever they want to believe. They no longer look to God and his Word for answers - they just want to worship God in a weak and lazy way - where they are never convicted of wrong-doing and never feel like they have to work for God!

Another problem that I feel occurs - is the jealousy and covetness of man. There are many men who want power and control - and they think that by controlling a denomination or church - that they can set the rules and the doctrine as to what suits them. Basically, they want to be God or as gods!

A great illustration of the devil at his work - drawing parallels to the issue that we're discussing is in the story of Adam and Eve

Genesis Chapter 3 -

1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Now - God had set down the rules and his will for Adam and Eve. BUT - when the devil subtly tempted Eve - she gave in because of the things that the devil had planted in her mind!

It's the same with the church. God put forward his will and his instruction in his Word - yet when the devil tempted some men into making their own set of beliefs - it started to split the church. And in the end - that's what the devil wants - to split the church and lead the lost into a false belief of salvation.

Luke 6:39 - 'And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?'

God Bless.

[Anne]

It's okay dood, just read your last post I understand what you're asking now. You know no one has ever put that to me before, i'll get right on to it and back asap.

[Fiosh]

Hi dood,

RE: "There is more interesting pieces of scripture which I find mind boggling.

Here's the biggie. I won't go into the others i find interesting. It probably start a flame war lol.

Romans 3:7-18

- 7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

Gods glory as to who he is came from the aspect that we are sinners. I wonder how this could possibly be unless we didn't know what good was. If we are a sinner first then understand good i can understand the glory. On the same note. If the orginal sin with the apple was intentional by adam and eve for they knew in advance. Then I'm curious to where is Gods glory?"

Go back and re-read Chapter 3 from the beginning. (better still 2 & 3). Paul is talking about what those who attempt to slander him are saying. Paul's actual teaching is that even when we sin, God can use it for His glory. Think of Joseph's brothers or Judas. Our lies and evil actions do not diminish God's glory. If I walk with God, I am assured that even when men do evil against me, God will use it for my good. (Romans 8:28)

Adam & Eve clearly knew it was wrong to eat of the fruit. Genesis 3:2 clearly states it. God knew it would happen, but that does not detract from Eve's free will. Ex. I may KNOW that my dog will chase a car; that does not mean I make him do it.

God will have the glory due Him regardless of our actions. He does not need us. We need Him. And by glorifying Him, we ourselves are lifted up.

Peace,

Fiosh

[Openly Curious]

Go back and re-read Chapter 3 from the beginning. (better still 2 & 3). Paul is talking about what those who attempt to slander him are saying. Paul's actual teaching is that even when we sin, God can use it for His glory. Think of Joseph's brothers or Judas. Our lies and evil actions do not diminish God's glory. If I walk with God, I am assured that even when men do evil against me, God will use it for my good. (Romans 8:28)

Adam & Eve clearly knew it was wrong to eat of the fruit. Genesis 3:2 clearly states it. God knew it would happen, but that does not detract from Eve's free will. Ex. I may KNOW that my dog will chase a car; that does not mean I make him do it.

God will have the glory due Him regardless of our actions. He does not need us. We need Him. And by glorifying Him, we ourselves are lifted up.

Peace,

Fiosh

Hi Fiosh;

Umm Where does it say in Genesis 3:2 they knew better? Looks like it says they are allowed.

KJV Genesis 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

I never once was arguing that God can use sin to his glory.

Reading a little further

KJV Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Plainly put eat it or touch it and you will die.

Genesis 2:17

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Plainly put don't eat of this tree. When the day comes you do you will die.

Every example of scripture God gives the end result is death in regards to the tree. But he does not state why for Adam's and Eves foreknowledge. I can't find anywhere where God says you are not allowed, you shouldn't you can't. It just says you will die.

Dood,

And that end result death in which you are referring to is two-fold first it was a spiritual death as they fell and their conscious was now on evil for their eyes were opened to the evil as well as the good. Also it meant a physical death as scripture tells us it is appointed unto man once to die and also we will give account for every deed we do in our bodies whether good or bad.

for the wages of sin is death. this death is eternal damnation in hell it speaks about. God had given Adam a law to obey and that was to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for the day you do you will surely die. Adam disobeyed that law and his conscious towards God was tainted so to speak for his mind his consciousness was not only on just good any more it was then opened to evil. So Adam became both spiritually dead and also would one day physically die. Adam had foreknowledge of the law of God "thou shalt not eat of the tree of good and evil" for God told Adam the consequences if he did eat what would happen.

"Thou shalt not" means you are not "allowed"

Like I said that death means eternal damnation which passed upon everyone who is born into the world death passed upon all. It takes the blood of Jesus and the work on the cross to redeem us back from the wages of sin. The gift of eternal life only comes through Christ and it says in the book of Hebrews that the blood of bulls and goats could only temporarily atone for sins only once a year under the old covenanant could sins be forgiven but the blood of Jesus cleanses us once and for all and He sprinkles our conscious from dead works to serve the living God in other words God makes us conscious of Him once again so that we can serve Him freely as he sets us free from the curse of the law which the law was "Thou shalt not eat of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil for the day you do you shall surly die."

Our salvation solely relies on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to save us from the penalty of sin. That penalty was eternal damnation in hell. Before Adam and Eve fell they were both naked and didn't know but after they ate of the tree their eyes were opened and they knew they were naked and sewed fig leaves to hid their nakedness as they were ashamed of their nakedness. because now their minds were tainted by the evil that Satan tempted them with. I thank God for the blood that set me free from the penalty of sin. And delivered me from eternal damnation eternity in hell. Some people believe that the earth that we are living in right now is hell but that is a lie from the devil himself and is error.

Openly Curious

[Openly Curious]

Openly Curious:

Alright A few pointers. We have not been discussing salvation, death, hell or anything of the sort There is plenty of threads on those subjects. Please don't go there same for preaching please avoid it in this thread. The part-takers myself included have been correlating The essence of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. Not that we commited sin, but why it happen. It's easy to say. We were not suppose to and did it anyway. That's great but it doesn't explain why we did it to begin with. Which is what I wish to know. If you read this thread through you'll see how it got here.

"Thou shalt not" means you are not "allowed"

I agree "Thou shalt not" does mean "not allowed". Put it back in context and it doesn't mean that anymore. Look at it in NIV.

NIV Genesis 2:16-17

And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

According to that God foreknew they would eat of the tree. He knew it and let them do it anyway. I'm not saying were not accountable. I believe we are, but thats besides the point.

I'm a open book if you can influence me otherwise. I ask to provide evidence to statements as I don't have blind faith.

dood,

The reason "why" we did it well we didn't do it Adam did and death passed upon all. The why lies in one thing and that is the serpent entered the garden where man was put to dress it and keep it for that was his job given to him by God himself. The serpent who is the devil came to Eve in the form of a serpent and lied to her the serpent "tricked" her he decieved Eve who was the weaker vessel of the two. And being decieved she fell for the devil lies that he told her and she ate from the forbidden tree.

Then she gave to Adam to eat. Now Adam was not decieved by the serpent Adam just flat our rebelled against the law of God without Satan in the form of a serpent coming to him and tricking him through lies to eat from the forbidden tree.

The reason "why" they fell was because the serpent entered their world and brought "temptation" to them and they fell into it as Eve was in the transgression as she was decieved and then Adam rebelled against the law of God.

Eternal damnation passed upon all of mankind from that point on And it is through one man Jesus Christ who is the second Adam it speaks about in** Romans 5**that life eternal life passes upon all whom recieve Him as Lord and Saviour from the penalty of sin. In the same way as it did through Adam. Death came by Adam but life comes through Christ.

So the reason "Why" is because the serpent entered the garden and brought "temptation" in the world in which Eve was deceived and tricked and then Adam fell as well.

Openly Curious

[Openly Curious]

dood,

The reason "why" we did it well we didn't do it Adam did and death passed upon all. The why lies in one thing and that is the serpent entered the garden where man was put to dress it and keep it for that was his job given to him by God himself. The serpent who is the devil came to Eve in the form of a serpent and lied to her the serpent "tricked" her he decieved Eve who was the weaker vessel of the two. And being decieved she fell for the devil lies that he told her and she ate from the forbidden tree.

Then she gave to Adam to eat. Now Adam was not decieved by the serpent Adam just flat our rebelled against the law of God without Satan in the form of a serpent coming to him and tricking him through lies to eat from the forbidden tree.

The reason "why" they fell was because the serpent entered their world and brought "temptation" to them and they fell into it as Eve was in the transgression as she was decieved and then Adam rebelled against the law of God.

Eternal damnation passed upon all of mankind from that point on And it is through one man Jesus Christ who is the second Adam it speaks about in Romans that life eternal life passes upon all whom recieve Him as Lord and Saviour from the penalty of sin. In the same way as it did through Adam. Death came by Adam but life comes through Christ.

So the reason "Why" is because the serpent entered the garden and brought "temptation" in the world in which Eve was deceived and tricked and then Adam fell as well.

Openly Curious

I'm not argueing that adam made error, that christ died on the cross or that the devil is king of temptation. Or there was trickery involved etc. None of that nor am I enquiring about the story of adam and eve in the form of how it played out. I'm asking why it played it the way it did. What was the lesson that needed to be learned. Why was the knowledge of God and evil needed to be required before they eat of the tree. God put the tree there for a reason. Not only for a reason but God also went on to say "For in the day that you do eat thereof" He already knew Eve would eat of the tree before she did it. God already knew she and adam would be disobientent before they actually were.

I think there must be a lesson in there.

dood

Yes there is a lesson in there and that lesson is in verse #1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

In other words God had a plan for mankind and the earth he created. The devil messed with that plan as we know and mankind fell as a result. But God had foreknowledge of that as God is all knowing and therefore in God's plan he provided a way in which to redeem mankind back to himself and that was through His only begotten Son in which he would send in His plan to be the ransom for our sins.

God had a plan from the foundation of the world. And I am glad to be right in the middle of that plan as I was included in it as well as you.

OC