st. Worm Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2006 Now I've heard everything! Disease and death is the result of sin in this world. It is not of God. Furthermore, we don't have to possess faith at all for a healing. Those men who let down a man on a stretcher through the roof of a house in order to have their friend healed had the faith. Jesus healed that man for THEIR faith, not the sick man's! But it is about faith ultimately...doesn't have to be your own. So you are saying the devil and sin bring illness and death to man apart from God's will? If you believe that, you are in dangerous territory. That's no laughing matter. sw It's God's sovereign will that we all live in health. Alas, we live in a fallen world, and God has a permissive will too. There are things He allows and there are countless things He does not allow--but we have not the foggiest notion what they are, because He has stepped in and cancelled those things! Amen! Of course the devil is the source of all disease and death... ultimately. Not laughing, either! So I guess the book of Job is not the word of God if your statement is true. God certainly willed suffering and bad health on him. You have a strange mixture of beliefs. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Do you really believe God told Robertson to have Chavez killed? Very blurry in my memory banks, but I do believe it was either his own opinion or he was misquoted (as usual). I truly believe that Pat would never say that God told him that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2006 Pat Roberson never made the claim God said to kill anyone. He simply believed Chavez to be a threat to America and gave an opinion based on that threat. The fact that God would give the order to go to war and yes kill the enemies of Israel shows that it is not unBiblical to do so when necessary. But the OT nation of Israel no longer exists. God does not order nations to attack and kill today through direct revelation. I have no problem killing threats to our country if necessary but God does not tell us to do so. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2006 Now I've heard everything! Disease and death is the result of sin in this world. It is not of God. Furthermore, we don't have to possess faith at all for a healing. Those men who let down a man on a stretcher through the roof of a house in order to have their friend healed had the faith. Jesus healed that man for THEIR faith, not the sick man's! But it is about faith ultimately...doesn't have to be your own. So you are saying the devil and sin bring illness and death to man apart from God's will? If you believe that, you are in dangerous territory. That's no laughing matter. sw It's God's sovereign will that we all live in health. Alas, we live in a fallen world, and God has a permissive will too. There are things He allows and there are countless things He does not allow--but we have not the foggiest notion what they are, because He has stepped in and cancelled those things! Amen! Of course the devil is the source of all disease and death... ultimately. Not laughing, either! So I guess the book of Job is not the word of God if your statement is true. God certainly willed suffering and bad health on him. You have a strange mixture of beliefs. sw Satan put the misdeeds on Job. Text quite plain about that. What did God do? Made Job filthy rich instead of just rich. God permitted every suffering incurred by Job. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2006 Pat Roberson never made the claim God said to kill anyone. He simply believed Chavez to be a threat to America and gave an opinion based on that threat. The fact that God would give the order to go to war and yes kill the enemies of Israel shows that it is not unBiblical to do so when necessary. But the OT nation of Israel no longer exists. God does not order nations to attack and kill today through direct revelation. I have no problem killing threats to our country if necessary but God does not tell us to do so. sw By your theory, we can never go to war. If we as a nation can declare and fight a war, we can also kill one leader to save the thousands of life the war would cost if we fought it. There is nothing I said that prevents us from going to war. Do you require that God grant us permission before we go to war or that God order us to go to war before we go? It is your theory that says we can't go to war then. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjrose Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,580 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/13/1960 Author Share Posted August 21, 2006 Now I've heard everything! Disease and death is the result of sin in this world. It is not of God. Furthermore, we don't have to possess faith at all for a healing. Those men who let down a man on a stretcher through the roof of a house in order to have their friend healed had the faith. Jesus healed that man for THEIR faith, not the sick man's! But it is about faith ultimately...doesn't have to be your own. I think there is some validity to what you said, however I tend to believe the man on the stretcher did have faith. He very likely could have told his friends that if he could just get to Jesus, he would be healed. Still, in some instances, God will heal someone because a friend or family member believes. By the way SW, Jesus said in Mark 9:23 "If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." He said that to the Father of a child that was possessed of devils and desired they be cast out. The faith doctrine is Biblical. Notice I didn't say "word of faith" doctrine, but faith doctrine. It amazes me how God can take a thread and allow it to lead in to other things. One thing positive is that it has brought us together in a debate be it a good one or not, we are communicating. I do not consider myself charismatic but my faith has grown enormously since I have joined Worthy and I am so grateful for that. God is certainly teaching me discipline in this thread because I have grown up learning to protect myself physically and emotionally. I have not always set a good example of Christs Love. But I am actually grateful for this post because I have learned from it. I have learned to control myself ( and if you think I haven't been, you didn't know me back when ) I have received support and love and more encouragement that I could have ever asked for. So not only did Pat's words that day long ago allow me to have enough faith for God to heal me, little did I know the impact it would have in my future such as now. So, God is still working to heal me, rash or no rash (which never did come back by the way) The rash concerned me because of my fathers rashes that doctors were dumbfounded at and could not diagnose, later it was found to be a symptom of Lukemia that ultimately took his life. Through our experiences we learn and through our debates we learn. It isn't always what we want to hear and we may disagree and I do apologize by offending anyone who deemed it so. But we all have our interpretations and persons of interest who lift us up and who are phonies. This is where I trust the Holy Spirit to discern for me the truth. That is how strong my faith is. I give it all to God as I am now giving over this post to Him and see where it leads and know my brothers and sisters of Worthy, I respect you and love you and through all this I am still grateful to belong to this awesome forum. In Christs Love, Claudia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted August 21, 2006 God permitted every suffering incurred by Job. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted August 21, 2006 And they'll know we are Christians By our mudslinging By our mudslinging Yes they'll know we are Chrisitans By our mudslinging Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted August 21, 2006 And they'll know we are Christians By our mudslinging By our mudslinging Yes they'll know we are Chrisitans By our mudslinging Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2006 Now I've heard everything! Disease and death is the result of sin in this world. It is not of God. Furthermore, we don't have to possess faith at all for a healing. Those men who let down a man on a stretcher through the roof of a house in order to have their friend healed had the faith. Jesus healed that man for THEIR faith, not the sick man's! But it is about faith ultimately...doesn't have to be your own. So you are saying the devil and sin bring illness and death to man apart from God's will? If you believe that, you are in dangerous territory. That's no laughing matter. sw It's God's sovereign will that we all live in health. Alas, we live in a fallen world, and God has a permissive will too. There are things He allows and there are countless things He does not allow--but we have not the foggiest notion what they are, because He has stepped in and cancelled those things! Amen! Of course the devil is the source of all disease and death... ultimately. Not laughing, either! So I guess the book of Job is not the word of God if your statement is true. God certainly willed suffering and bad health on him. You have a strange mixture of beliefs. sw Satan put the misdeeds on Job. Text quite plain about that. What did God do? Made Job filthy rich instead of just rich. God permitted every suffering incurred by Job. sw Permitted is not sending. Permitted is not doing. What Job "feared" came upon him. Job opened the door by his lack of faith. Thats word of faith silliness. God ordained Job's suffering for his own purpose and glory. I think if you walked by the crucifixion in progress you would say Jesus was suffering for his lack of faith and that God had nothing to do with it. How warped this word of faith teaching is. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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