Guest shiloh357 Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 As for the "design reguires designer" argument, it is false. No, it is sound. So you see no design? That is willful blindness. The earth has structure and order. The seasons change quite predictably. There is a design and order to the laws that govern electricity. There is intricate order in the way the planets orbit the sun.You would be hardpressed to demonstrate how design occurs without outside assistance. My argument does not fail just because you refuse to see order or design in the universe. That is hardly "scientific." My argument only fails if you can demonstrate that there is no order or design in the universe. I would love to see you do that. Frankly, it is hypocritical of you to demand "scientific evidence," and then respond in such an unscientific manner No, it was a consortium of people. Lets assume your right for a minute, and follow what you say. I'll use a car for an example: Car is created by man, man is created by God, God is created by ???. Whether the car was created by one or more people is irrelevent. What is relevant is that the car had to be designed; just like everything else we use. Everything can be broken down into mathematical equations. Mathematics is too exact of a science to have occured by mere chance. Furthermore, my argument does not fail with relation to the orgin of God, because my argument that "everything has to be created" was limited to the physical universe. (go back and read my post.) My argument is that the physical universe as a designed thing, could not have just appeared. Why not take a clock down off your wall and beat it into a million pieces, and take those pieces and put them in a paper bag. Shake the bag until all the pieces just come together by chance and create a working clock? You would have a better chance of that happening than the all the atoms, particles and chemicals of the universe coming together and forming a universe of multiple galaxies and such. If I were an evolution scientist, you would be an embarassment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fovezer Posted December 1, 2003 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/27/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 1, 2003 No, it is sound. So you see no design? That is willful blindness. The earth has structure and order. The seasons change quite predictably. There is a design and order to the laws that govern electricity. There is intricate order in the way the planets orbit the sun.You would be hardpressed to demonstrate how design occurs without outside assistance. My argument does not fail just because you refuse to see order or design in the universe. That is hardly "scientific." My argument only fails if you can demonstrate that there is no order or design in the universe. I would love to see you do that. Frankly, it is hypocritical of you to demand "scientific evidence," and then respond in such an unscientific manner No, it is not sound. Just because I do not see something the same way as you, doesn't make me wrong. I don't see no "design", but that doesn't mean I'm blind. I could say that you want there to be a god so bad, that you have convinced yourself there is design because of all the creationist garbage you have read. I don't have to prove there is no design, because you are claiming there is, and the burden of proof is on the accuser. And how was my reply "unscientific"? Whether the car was created by one or more people is irrelevent. What is relevant is that the car had to be designed; just like everything else we use. Everything can be broken down into mathematical equations. Mathematics is too exact of a science to have occured by mere chance. Furthermore, my argument does not fail with relation to the orgin of God, because my argument that "everything has to be created" was limited to the physical universe. (go back and read my post.) My argument is that the physical universe as a designed thing, could not have just appeared. But still, if god needs no creator, then why does the universe? All you have done so far is made empty claims. I would like to seem some evidence for this. (I highly doubt you can provide any solid evidence) Why not take a clock down off your wall and beat it into a million pieces, and take those pieces and put them in a paper bag. Shake the bag until all the pieces just come together by chance and create a working clock? You would have a better chance of that happening than the all the atoms, particles and chemicals of the universe coming together and forming a universe of multiple galaxies and such. If I were an evolution scientist, you would be an embarassment. Hahahaha!!!! Funny. I love strawman arguments. You know nothing about science, do you? Evolution has nothing to do with the creation of the universe. Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You are just confirming the stereotype of that all creationist are ignorant of science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted December 1, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 1, 2003 Fovezer , Did I read you correctly???? Well, using your words, I'd have to say he was a raving lunatic, but your post also makes no sense. I'll tell you this though, I don't need him because I have a great life right now without him. If I did then why are you here???? I think it is time for an answer???? This is not a game! G-d is Holy and Righteous. He also gave you free will for His Glory. Use it wisely friend. Heb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted December 1, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 1, 2003 Peace, Fovezer, Sounds like your mind is made up already? I found these posts of yours on another Christian board. Are you familiar with these? Fovezer(Thank God I'm an Atheist) The bible can still apply now is because people keep interpreting the Bible to fit their beliefs. And the Bible does not give all the answers, for me, at least. What do you mean "got lucky"? The people just wrote down stories. Frankly, yes you are. You are trying to use fear to scare him into Christianity. The whole "believe or burn in hell for eternity" is a very sadistic doctrine. And BTW, that is only your belief, not a fact. Fovezer(Thank God I'm an Atheist) That's your opinion. Many atheists were once Christians, who, when they went looking for the truth, found Christianity and the Bible to be incorrect. There is no problem with still searching for the truth. The problem is when people are ignorant to all other evidence, and claim they have the absolute truth. I have NEVER heard an atheist use that arguement before, because, once again, no atheist will ever say that there is a god, because then they wouldn't be an atheist. An atheist may say that a god is a possibility to explain how we got here, but he is not saying that there is a god or that is how we got here. There is no "structure of atheism" because it isn't anything more than a lack of belief in a god. Is that so hard to comprehend? You are slightly wrong on the atheist definition. It's not that we don't aknowledge a god, it's that we don't believe ANY god exists, including the Christian god, Allah, Zues, and all the other ones. Many atheist are open to the possibility of a god if adequet evidence is available, which there isn't. So there is no evidence that will convince you? Please tarry elsewhere! Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 No, it is not sound. Just because I do not see something the same way as you, doesn't make me wrong. I don't see no "design", but that doesn't mean I'm blind. I could say that you want there to be a god so bad, that you have convinced yourself there is design because of all the creationist garbage you have read. I don't have to prove there is no design, because you are claiming there is, and the burden of proof is on the accuser. And how was my reply "unscientific"? It is unscientific, because it amounts to intellectual suicide. It is like those people who contend that the earth is flat. They do not see a round earth because they refuse to see it. The same here. It is nothing more than an adolescent stubbornness. When one can look at order and structure and say that it isn't there, it really makes one look foolish. I mean it would be one thing, if you applied a little common sense, but you are resorting to absurdity in order to reject God. Demonstrate the lack of design. You are are saying that you see no order, no design. Demonstrate that. You say that you can see nothing but a lack of design, so it should be easy. Hahahaha!!!! Funny. I love strawman arguments. You know nothing about science, do you? Evolution has nothing to do with the creation of the universe. Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You are just confirming the stereotype of that all creationist are ignorant of science. No I am not. Evolutionists contend that the entire universe was created by a "big bang." All the elements of the universe then somehow arranged themselves in such a way to form planets, stars, solar sytems , etc. Evolution speaks heavily to the creation of the universe. I am beginning to think that you are the one who does not know as much as you like to pretend that you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fovezer Posted December 2, 2003 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/27/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 2, 2003 It is unscientific, because it amounts to intellectual suicide. It is like those people who contend that the earth is flat. They do not see a round earth because they refuse to see it. The same here. It is nothing more than an adolescent stubbornness. When one can look at order and structure and say that it isn't there, it really makes one look foolish. I mean it would be one thing, if you applied a little common sense, but you are resorting to absurdity in order to reject God. So now I'm rejecting god because I just don't want to believe in him? Right? That makes sense. Demonstrate the lack of design. You are are saying that you see no order, no design. Demonstrate that. You say that you can see nothing but a lack of design, so it should be easy. How can I demonstate that something doesn't exist, if it doesn't exist to start with? You assert the positive, its up to you to demonstrate how there IS design. Stop side-stepping and answer the question. No I am not. Evolutionists contend that the entire universe was created by a "big bang." All the elements of the universe then somehow arranged themselves in such a way to form planets, stars, solar sytems , etc. Evolution speaks heavily to the creation of the universe. I am beginning to think that you are the one who does not know as much as you like to pretend that you do. So you're saying a creationist (you) knows what evolution entails better than an evolutionist (me)? Anyways, you are completely wrong. Evolution never states ANYTHING about where and how the universe came into being. It also does not deal with abiogenesis. It only deals with the evolution of single-celled creatures to where we are today. You are thinking physics and cosmotology. (Don't say I'm wrong, because I KNOW this is right.) That is why evolution and religion can go together. This is very basic. How could you not know at least this much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted December 2, 2003 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Hello to all. I pray all of you had a great weekend holiday. Although some of you continued the discussion throughout the holiday weekend, I did my best to stay away from my home computer. Now that I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted December 2, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 2, 2003 I see not much has changed in the past week. Fovezer: Regarding the Grandsons of Noah as mentioned in the Bible. All of these men were REAL, settled all over the eastern continents and the proof is that there are places NAMED after them. Isn't it most likely that these places were named after real PEOPLE? It's just another coincidence to you? Remarkable coincidence, isn't it? It's amazing at how quickly you can dismiss things. Would you only believe in God if he were visible, rather than invisible? Would you need to actually see him? You used to be a Christian, but you weren't a very good one were you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted December 2, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 2, 2003 So now I'm rejecting god because I just don't want to believe in him? Right? That makes sense. Yes, that does make a lot of sense. You heart is hardened toward God. That is obvious to every Christian debating with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted December 2, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 2, 2003 Dr Luke! What great detective work! And what a surprise! Was I right or was I right when I said that he probably frequents Christian message boards, trying to fight Christianity? QUOTE Fovezer(Thank God I'm an Atheist) Yes, the proud athiest who worships his own intellect! You are SO smart fovezer not to believe in God! lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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