Ovedya Posted November 5, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted November 5, 2003 God-man, By what you say here my friend you are not an atheist. If what you say is true, I hate to break it to you but you are an agnostic not an atheist. If you are an atheist you do not believe in God period. If you just lack the belief in a God and are open to the possibility of a God you are an agnostic(not knowing). My words Then, my friend, you are not an atheist at all. You are an agnostic. An atheist not only does not believe in God, but refuses to believe in the possibility of there ever having been a God. An agnostic is someone who is skeptical about the existence of God, but still remains open-minded about the possibility. your words in a later post, Good job, I am proud of you,you are learning from me. I feel like a proud parent of an honor student. I hope you keep this up. Nicholas I did not read your reply before posting mine. This kind of thing happens all the time with me. What I learned of agnostacism and atheism comes from my own past as an agnostic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted November 5, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted November 5, 2003 "Preach the Gospel always. Sometimes, use words." Saint Francis of Assissi said this. yep, a Catholic "They had quote upon quote upon quote. Their arguement was solid, and they did it with the uttmost respect and sincere desire to lead me to Christ. But as soon as they were done, I would tell them, 'Nice job. I just don't buy the premese for your arguement. I don't buy the Bible." Thank you for saying this. I already said it but I got slammed since I am a Catholic and therefore useless. Finally, I am hearing truth and REASON for God's sake, and ya know what you didn't get this in the bible, you used your BRAIN. Good job. Nicholas *sigh* another hi-jacked thread..... CAN WE PLEASE NOT TURN THIS INTO ANOTHER CATHOLIC DISCUSSION??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholas Posted November 5, 2003 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 250 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted November 5, 2003 CAN WE PLEASE NOT TURN THIS INTO ANOTHER CATHOLIC DISCUSSION??? If I say no, are you going to cry. *sigh* another hi-jacked thread..... yep, hijacked by a ruthless crusader. Nicholas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted November 6, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted November 6, 2003 CAN WE PLEASE NOT TURN THIS INTO ANOTHER CATHOLIC DISCUSSION??? If I say no, are you going to cry. *sigh* another hi-jacked thread..... yep, hijacked by a ruthless crusader. Nicholas No. If you say no, I'll just delete the Catholic rhetoric. psssst....don't say "crusader" too loud....It's not the proudest part of RC history.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fovezer Posted November 6, 2003 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/27/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted November 6, 2003 I'm sorry I haven't replied, I've been busy. It doesn't? See how logical THIS sounds: The other night, a big tornado came through. Around back, I had a bunch of scrap metal and things laying around, but after the tornado came through, I had a brand new Rolls-Royce. Sounds silly, huh? No more silly than saying the universe has no creator! Strawman. It has no relevence. Do hoaxes influence and turn upside down the whole known world? In less than 4 centuries from the death of Christ, the Roman Empire was turned upside down by Christianity. The whole basis of this nation was Christian principles as were many European countries. That, my friend, is something hoaxes and cults CANNOT lay claim to! Yes a hoax can influence a lot. Remember when "War of the Worlds" by H.G. Wells was broadcasted? It caused utter chaos. The Roman Empire was not turned upside down by Christianity. Empires grow and fall regularly. 400 years plus many years before that is a long time for an empire. This nation is NOT a Christian nation. The founding fathers were against establishing this nation a one religions principles. Many were Diests, also. Who gave us morals in the 1st place if not God? Society DOES NOT determine moral absolutes. Society left to itself without God goes into a downward spiral of decline in morals-our own society is an indication of that. We murder millions upon millions of unborn children under the guise of "choice." This is what you get when you attempt to isolate morals from religion. Society does determine morals. Would you consider it moral for men and women to walk around buck-naked? No? But it is ok in in some tribes in Africa. It is not immoral for them. This site states pretty well how society does determine morals. People also murder millions upon millions of people under the guise of "religion". Morality and relion do not have to go hand in hand. I know a few and they are some of the most absolute smart-mouthed know-it-alls I've seen. You dare to disagree with their position, all of this "acceptance" and "openness" goes out the window. The atheists I've met, such as yourself, seem to derive great pleasure in being insultive to people of faith. Whoa, I never intentionally insulted no one. All the atheists I've met seem much more understanding and tolerant than the religious people who have the "You're going to hell" attitude. So, the idea that the universe was created by an all-knowing, loving God is a fairy tale to you? So, you'd rather believe that a bunch of gasses exploded and created the Earth? Try this-pour gasoline all over your house, light a match, and see what happens. Anything constructive? I bet not! But yet the almost exact same thing is believed to have created the Earth? Who's fairy-taling who? If you are a truly open person who holds open the possibility of God, which I hope you are, may I suggest two very good books? The first one is by Josh McDowell-Evidence That Demands A Verdict and What If The Bible Had Never Been Written? by Dr. D. James Kennedy. One other thing-what about Israel. Why are the eyes of the whole world fixed in gaze upon a small seemingly inconsequential nation in the desert? Why has this little nation been able to survive the things it has? In closing, we're talking eternity here. You can try to explain away the Bible if you choose, but I can choose to explain away the TV if I like-still doesn't make me right, does it? Many atheists/agnostics have investigated the claims made by Christianity and have came to the conclusion that Christianity is THE way! Think twice, friend, it's eternity we're talking about!!! Nice strawman with the gases arguement. Why has Israel been able to survive? Its because the United States gave then much more technologically advanced weaponry and no nation wants to tick off the United States. Many Christian have also investigated Christianity and came to the conclusion it is NOT the way. Your point? If its eternity we are talking about, are you sure Christianity s the right one? I mean you only have a 1/5000-ish chance of being right. Might want to get straight with Allah and Zues, just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGR Posted November 6, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 512 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 8,601 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/16/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/04/1973 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Why has Israel been able to survive? Its because the United States gave then much more technologically advanced weaponry and no nation wants to tick off the United States. Cute, but not the right answer! Actually, we're talking down through the centuries the Jews have survived against incredible odds, but still know their ancestry. As for no one wanting to mess with them because of the USA, don't think so. They should have easily lost the 6-day war, but they didn't. In closing, I'll add the words of a great old gospel song-"my God is real for I can feel Him in my soul." Don't play games with eternity because you might come up on the losing end, friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fovezer Posted November 6, 2003 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/27/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted November 6, 2003 Fovezer, By what you say here my friend you are not an atheist. If what you say is true, I hate to break it to you but you are an agnostic not an atheist. If you are an atheist you do not believe in God period. If you just lack the belief in a God and are open to the possibility of a God you are an agnostic(not knowing). I have a question for you. By our knowledge of mathmatics everything that moves has an original mover. Think of it, all things that we know of are moved by something else. What started the first movement. The big bang has been proven false by mathmatics, since we know for certain that the stars and planets are speeding up. So what was the first mover? Next, all things in this world that man knows that are not natural that are made are made by something of greater intelect. Shirt=tailor, building=architect, car= mechanic, and so on. This is the nature of man. Things are made by things of greater knowledge. What was the first maker? I cannot believe that man being the most intellegent being that we know of was made by matter itself. Last, Do you believe man has reason? Nicholas P.S. I do know atheists and agnostics, some are very close to me. False. I am an atheist. I don't believe any gods exist, but I will not say that there is absolutly no god or possibility for one. That is illogical. The Big Bang has been proven false? I think not. Please provide evidence for such statements. Your example is infinite. If everthing has a maker, then, according to you, a more intelligent being must have created your god, and so on and so on. There are 5 possible "first makers": 1. Logical and mathematical necessity. The equations and laws of the universe are so compelling that they forced the formation of a universe for them to describe. 2. Deity. A God or Gods created the universe. 3. Quantum fluctuation. Events at the quantum level are uncaused. The universe is a huge quantum event. 4. No Boundary. This is a proposal by Stephen Hawking and updated with Turok. If all the dimensions of the universe were the same shortly after the Big Bang, you get a universe that doesn't have a beginning and therefore was never "created". It just IS. 5. Ekpyrotic. This is a variation of #3. The universe is the result of a random collision between two quantum membranes in 11 dimensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fovezer Posted November 6, 2003 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/27/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted November 6, 2003 To all One cannot argue with an atheist of the existence of God with holy scripture. They don't put any accountability in it. Nicholas Thank you for being to understand that. You are one of few who do. proof that GOD exist...hummmm...lets see...we have a little nation called ISRAEL. how does that prove a god exists? i think people who call themselves atheist are just using this name as a cover up.i believe they are afraid to admit that they could be wrong.someday death will creep upon them like it will everyone else.then there will be an eternity spent somewhere.the chose is ours.atheist are stubborn folks who are afraid to believe.they maynot believe in GOD' date='but GOD believes in them[/quote'] Are you serious? I am not afraid to admit I'm wrong. Show me some solid evidence for the existiance of ANY diety, and I will admit I was wrong. Christians are the ones who never admit they are wrong. I mean come on, there are still people who believe in Young Earth Creation (YEC), which was falsified 150 years ago, by Christians nonetheless. And can you get any more arrogant? Most atheists are very open-minded. I highly doubt you were ever an atheist. QUESTION??why is an atheist on a christian site?searching for the truth maybe? I like debating and I want to clear up blatant myths about atheism and evolution and the like. Okay. Where did societies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGR Posted November 6, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 512 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 8,601 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/16/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/04/1973 Share Posted November 6, 2003 The idea that the world was created by some "big bang" is as big of a "strawman" as you can get! Does order come out of chaos? Folks such as yourself truly amaze me to no end. You will go to whatever lengths possible to deny that God exists as a coverup for the conviction that is riding high on your life for the things you've done. You might want to learn the things you're talking about. Only the truly ignorant can attempt to explain that life started out from some "oooze" in the ocean. How did the "oooze" get there in the 1st place, do praytell? You can have all of the college degrees in the world, friend, but it doesn't make one truly intelligent. You may have book learning and be master of many things, but the only thing that matters is the record above, friend. If you would like to go through life thinking God doesn't exist, well it's not my place to tell you not to. God gave you a free will just like he did me. If you're truly open to the possibility of His existence, there are great resources out there to research, but I somehow get a feeling you're here not in search of truth, but to try and bring someone else down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douay Posted November 6, 2003 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 287 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 39 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/09/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted November 6, 2003 Fovezer, would you like to start a new topic on evolution then? That way everyone can leave their Bibles at home. I am interested in this pre-bacteria organism, and would like to further this discussion in a more focussed manner. Douay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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