Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Thaddaeus]

neopatriarch,

Let me see if I understand you. You are saying that God's wrath against all sinful men, believers and nonbelievers alike, has been appeased by the suffering and death of Christ. But what about those in hell already? The price has been paid for their sins, but they are in hell paying for those sins a second time, right? Or, is there no punishment for sins in hell?

Where does it ever say that God is angry with sinful men. All I ever read in Scripture is His love of mankind. He so loved the world that WHILE WE WERE YET IN SIN, He died for us. Does that sound like wrath? He had mercy upon all, Rom 11:32.

In order to have union with man, which is why we were created two things needed to be solved.

One, the most important, man had to be made immortal, man needed life. The condemnation against Adam needed to be corrected. If not corrected, man simply dies and ceases to exist as a human being. Thus Christ became our death, He died so that we might live. We live because He assumed our human natures and raised them to life.

Having given man life in eternity was not enough. God also wanted that union to take place in this life. In order to do that sin needed to be propitiated. Christ died, His blood shed, for the world. One drop was all that was needed to cover all the sins of the world. But the atonement would only be necessary for those who decided to beleive, to accept Christ. Those that believed, would repent and their sins forgiven, ONLY because they have already been propitiated. No man would be left out, all would be called to repentance, but it is up to man to use its power of remission through faith and repentance.

Now, you worry about those in Hell. If Christ had not given life to man, there would be no hell. Dust does not have life. Also, since they either never believed, or if they believed for a while but fell from the fold, their sins will judge them, which is why they are in hell. Christ did not pay for their sins, since they were never given to Him to remit.

No man is compelled to be in union with Christ. He made it possible for all men to share in the Great Gift of Mercy. But man was also created free. God desires a creature that would freely love in return. What would forced love be?

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

There is absolutely nothing here about God's wrath against man. It is against the ungodliness and unrighteousness OF MEN. Huge difference.

Ephesians 5:5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

yes,. sin and God have never mixed. That is why we must guard against sin ever taking root in our lives. We should constantly seek repentance and make confession of our sin. That is what the Atonment was for, to remit sins, so that man, living with a fallen nature, prone to sin, in a fallen world, with the devil seeking to devour him, can still have union with God, as long as he flees sin and seeks forgiveness of the sin he does commit.

Colossians 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

That is the offer of salvation that God gives to all men. God calls all to repentance, man has but to repent and believe and ask for the forgiveness of his sins. BUT,. if man does not desire union with God, then man also will suffer the consequences of that rejection.

How can God's wrath be poured out on men for their sins if Christ's has appeased God's wrath for everyone?

Because you fail to understand the real meaning and purpose of God creating man in the first place. You have grasped onto a theory that is not present in the Bible, the so-called forensic theory or the "satisfaction theory" This is a wholly different approach that was developed by Anselm and Abelard way back in the 11th century.

[BurnForChrist]

Where does it ever say that God is angry with sinful men. All I ever read in Scripture is His love of mankind. He so loved the world that WHILE WE WERE YET IN SIN, He died for us. Does that sound like wrath? He had mercy upon all, Rom 11:32.

In order to have union with man, which is why we were created two things needed to be solved.

One, the most important, man had to be made immortal, man needed life. The condemnation against Adam needed to be corrected. If not corrected, man simply dies and ceases to exist as a human being. Thus Christ became our death, He died so that we might live. We live because He assumed our human natures and raised them to life.

You need to do a study upon the atributes of GOD, and spend less time posting and more time reading your bible. The bible tells us in so many places that GOD is angry with sinful men:

Psalm 11:5 "The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates."

Psalm 7:11 "God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day."

Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness."

Yet his love is so strong, that he even loves the objects of his own wrath. You need to read the context of Romans 11:32, he is talking about Israel, and how he went to the gentiles, so that they might come to him and provoke them to jealousy. No what needed to be appeased was his wrath and justice, because if GOD is just, then he CANNOT forgive you. Thats what his Son did. The father poured out his wrath upon his Son, and his son took up that cup and drank it, and not one drop came out, thus reconciling us back to GOD.

Having given man life in eternity was not enough. God also wanted that union to take place in this life. In order to do that sin needed to be propitiated. Christ died, His blood shed, for the world. One drop was all that was needed to cover all the sins of the world. But the atonement would only be necessary for those who decided to beleive, to accept Christ. Those that believed, would repent and their sins forgiven, ONLY because they have already been propitiated. No man would be left out, all would be called to repentance, but it is up to man to use its power of remission through faith and repentance.

Now, you worry about those in Hell. If Christ had not given life to man, there would be no hell. Dust does not have life. Also, since they either never believed, or if they believed for a while but fell from the fold, their sins will judge them, which is why they are in hell. Christ did not pay for their sins, since they were never given to Him to remit. No man is compelled to be in union with Christ. He made it possible for all men to share in the Great Gift of Mercy. But man was also created free. God desires a creature that would freely love in return. What would forced love be?

First of all, after reading all of this, you think too much of men. What you need to realize is that GOD did not become lonely, and wanted to create man for that purpose. GOD created man for His GLORY, and yes wants to have fellowship with man so that they may know how great he truly is. Second you dont understand the depravity of man, and how evil Sin really is. Let me ask you a question, if we are depraved, evil, and dead in our sins, how in the world could you ever get the idea that we could, in our lost state, ever love a infintly holy and righteous GOD? For indeed when we are saved, we are given a new heart of flesh, that is capable of loving GOD (Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26, 2 Corinthians 5:17).

Third Christ died for his PEOPLE, the ELECT, while yes his blood could efficiently cover the sins of every man that ever lived, it will only be applied to the elect. He grants repentance and belief to those who are his own, who have been choosen (Philippians 1:29). Let me ask you a question, where was Jacobs choice? Where was Esau's choice? (Romans 9:10-15) And where are you getting your scripture from to support all that you have just stated? Christ gives life to dead men, those who have been ransomed, his sheep. Hell is where the abomidable, disobidient, wicked man goes to be punished of his Sin. Where did Christ ever say that he could loose those whom his father had given him? He said just the opposite, read all of John 6.

Yes,. sin and God have never mixed. That is why we must guard against sin ever taking root in our lives. We should constantly seek repentance and make confession of our sin. That is what the Atonment was for, to remit sins, so that man, living with a fallen nature, prone to sin, in a fallen world, with the devil seeking to devour him, can still have union with God, as long as he flees sin and seeks forgiveness of the sin he does commit.

Ok, you need to understand the power of the cross dear friend. When we are saved, we are given a new nature (2 Cor. 5:17), no longer in bondage to sin (Romans 6:6), we who are in Christ haved died to sin (Romans 6:2). If the Holy Spirit, through Paul, tells us that we are dead to sin, given a new nature, and have the Holy Spirit, how could a saved person ever have sin root in there lives? Its impossible, do grapes grow on thorns or figs from thistles? Of course not its IMPOSSIBLE, the Power of GOD will keep his sheep from ever turning away from Him, thats what he ment in Jeremiah 32:40. He will put the fear of him in us, so that we will not turn away from him, and if one goes astray he will come for that lost sheep and discipline him. He will not loose those whom the father has given him (John 6:39; 10:29). Your posts are contradicting what scripture says.

That is the offer of salvation that God gives to all men. God calls all to repentance, man has but to repent and believe and ask for the forgiveness of his sins. BUT,. if man does not desire union with God, then man also will suffer the consequences of that rejection.

While yes, GOD calls all men every to repent (Acts 17:30), we are in capible to do so, unless GOD intervene's (Philippians 1:29). Now then are those who reject Christ, guilty and responsible? Yes they are, "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." (Romans 9:14-16).

"For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: 'I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." (Romans 9:17-18) Seems to me like Paul has a different view than yours.

"One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" Romans 9:19-21

Read all of Romans 9, because its contradicting all that you are saying and it will provide clarity on GODs Soverignty and Justice in election. We know that GOD will judge all men, those who are saved (2 Cor. 5:10) and those who are prepared for destruction, but we dont know how he will judge: "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!" Romans 11:33

Because you fail to understand the real meaning and purpose of God creating man in the first place. You have grasped onto a theory that is not present in the Bible, the so-called forensic theory or the "satisfaction theory" This is a wholly different approach that was developed by Anselm and Abelard way back in the 11th century.

On the contrary its you who do not understand the purpose and men of GOD creating man, again its for His Glory that he created everything, that he might get glory in all things, and that all may know that he is GOD.

Edited September 4, 2007 by BurnForChrist

[Thaddaeus]

BurnForChrist,

Second you dont understand the depravity of man, and how evil Sin really is. Let me ask you a question, if we are depraved, evil, and dead in our sins, how in the world could you ever get the idea that we could, in our lost state, ever love a infintly holy and righteous GOD? For indeed when we are saved, we are given a new heart of flesh, that is capable of loving GOD (Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26, 2 Corinthians 5:17).

I think I have realized it even more than you. Later in your post you seem to think that sin and God can mix. That just because God propitiated the sins of the world, that all men somehow cannot sin.

Your theology does not follow the Bible as much as you might think. The only reason mankind could not have an lasting relationship with God is because man had become mortal, through the judgement of death against Adam. That is what dead to sins means. Man could not do anything about either one. That is the whole reason for Christ in the first place.

Christ redeemed mankind from death, gave life, gave immortality to man. Christ overcame death. He also propitiated for the sins of the world. Christ did not eradicate sin, did not even change our human nature in this life, but He made it possible for those human beings who answered His universal call to repentance to be able to do so. God made it possible for a human being to meet God, through Christ. Your view also abrogates God's purpose in creating man.

The "saved" you keep refering to is the salvation of individual man's soul which is through faith. Christ did not save any souls on the Cross. He made it possible for mankind to do what man was created to do and be. He corrected the fall so mankind, every human being, could do what they were created to do, but do it freely.

Third Christ died for his PEOPLE, the ELECT,

the ultimate goal of God was to restore the ability of man to perform to his created mandate. God desires that all of his creatures would come to know Him. But God created man free just for the very reason you so much abhore, it seems. One is an elect upon faith. All human beings are His people. You quote John 6:39 and it does not even apply to what you are trying to state. However, the next verse does apply to beleivers. You aught to read more carefully. Rom 5:18-19, I Cor 15:20-22, Col 1:15-20 and many more clearly proclaim the saving of mankind from the fall, from death, from the bondage to that death and sin.

He grants repentance and belief to those who are his own, who have been choosen (Philippians 1:29).

He grants repentance to those that believe, who are then the elect. This text has no chosen in it. Faith is also a gift from God to all men. It is part of the heritage of being created in the Divine Image.

Let me ask you a question, where was Jacobs choice? Where was Esau's choice? (Romans 9:10-15) And where are you getting your scripture from to support all that you have just stated?

And what has any of this to do with believers. God chose individual people for a lot of different things. It has nothing to do with chosing believers. In fact the reason God chose most of these individuals is that He saw the righteousness of these individuals. This goes way back to Able, Enoch, Noah, Abraham. You talk of studying the Bible, maybe you aught ot know of what you speak before you make such wild assertions.

And where are you getting your scripture from to support all that you have just stated? Christ gives life to dead men, those who have been ransomed, his sheep.

Maybe you aught to read back in a post and you might know also. But John 10:11 tells you point blank that it is the sheep for which He died. The sheep become HIS SHEEP, by faith. They remain HIS SHEEP through faith. We are saved by Grace, through faith.

But for you and all the others who do not read the thread, even some, before they make assertions: the texts are:

II Cor 5:14-19. Because Christ is the eternal image of the Father, He alone is able to renew the image of God in man. Col 1:15-20; John 5:28-29; Rom 5:14-19; I Cor 15:20-22; I John 4:14, Texts that corroborate this view are: Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; I Cor 15:52, Eph 1:10; John 5:28, John 12: 32, I Tim 4:10, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Luke 2:30-32, Rev 20:12-13. They also show the universality of Christ's redemptive work.

Christ's work on the Cross is solely Grace, man has nothing to do with it, it is totally objective. See: John 1:13, I Pet 1:23, James 1:18, Gal 4:4, Heb 2:11, Rom 9:16.

Hell is where the abomidable, disobidient, wicked man goes to be punished of his Sin. Where did Christ ever say that he could loose those whom his father had given him? He said just the opposite, read all of John 6.

yes, and what you fail to understand, Hell does not even exist, except that Christ redeemed the world. He overcame death, the destruction of mankind. Read Gen 3:19. Do you believe dust has life? If one is to stand in judgement, one must first, be alive. He must be a human being, and not a pile of dust. Can you refute that understanding?

Where did Christ ever say that he could loose those whom his father had given him? He said just the opposite, read all of John 6.

Well, no place, but if you really read John 6 with understanding, it would be both, all of mankind, Not a single human being would ever be lost to death. Christ came to give life, to overcome death. Vs 39, but the next verse has the same for those who believe as well. But we also know elsewhere that all those that come to Christ, Christ will not turn any away. But that does not cover the other half of that covenantal agreement one makes with God upon entrance to that Kingdom, through faith, repentance and baptism. Man is obligated to meet the conditions of that communion.

Ok, you need to understand the power of the cross dear friend. When we are saved, we are given a new nature (2 Cor. 5:17), no longer in bondage to sin (Romans 6:6)

I do, but do you. You seem to limit its power to only some human beings. The Cross, the Work of Christ is universal in scope. We possess that new nature in the eschaton, but it is ONLY possible because of Christ. All men will be raised. Rom 6 is the baptism chapter. If you read further you will find that when we participate in that death and resurrection through baptism we become believers. Therein lies the difference. Man needs life first, before faith or any communion can be eternal. Since man could not do this, Christ did it for man. See all the texts I listed above.

No human being is in bondage to death and sin any longer. We have been freed from it, for the sole purpose of being able to freely choose for whom we desire to be a slave. We can become slaves of Christ, or become slaves of Satan. Man is free to choose and it is this freedom and what we do with it on which we will be judged.

If the Holy Spirit, through Paul, tells us that we are dead to sin, given a new nature, and have the Holy Spirit, how could a saved person ever have sin root in there lives?

By permitting it to take root. The whole of the NT speaks directly at this continual problem the believer will face in this life. We need to guard against permitting sin to dwell, to permit the flesh to dominate our lives. That is why the atonement was necessary. To make provision for the forgiveness of the sins believers will commit.

Back to that Bible Study. You seem to have left out most of the NT.

Of course not its IMPOSSIBLE, the Power of GOD will keep his sheep from ever turning away from Him, thats what he ment in Jeremiah 32:40. He will put the fear of him in us, so that we will not turn away from him, and if one goes astray he will come for that lost sheep and discipline him. He will not loose those whom the father has given him (John 6:39; 10:29). Your posts are contradicting what scripture says.

The text you use contradicts your view. If what you say could be true, then how in the world can you have a stray sheep. Yes, He does go out to retrieve, will discipline as well. But man being free, created by God's sovereign will to be free, redeemed to free mankind from the bondage of death that befell mankind, to open up the ability of man to be free to choose, has the free choice to leave the fold.

Your posts are contradicting what scripture says.

so far, they only contradict what you think scripture says.

While yes, GOD calls all men every to repent (Acts 17:30), we are in capible to do so, unless GOD intervene's (Philippians 1:29).

So you make God a fake. He toys with man, calls all men, but knows that per your view, most are not capable of hearing or even believing.

Where do you see God intervening in Phil 1:29. All it is confirming, and Paul is emphasizing that all things are of God, including the persecution from which they are not to flee, but stand firm.

Now then are those who reject Christ, guilty and responsible? Yes they are, "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." (Romans 9:14-16).

You have a knack of really twisting scripture. yes, man is responsible and the Work of Christ on the Cross made man responsible. We are no longer beholden to the condemnation of Adam, death. Christ overcame death for us. Rom 9:14-16 is pertaining to the fact that God had mercy upon mankind. All human beings. God consigned all to disobedience (death) Rom 11:32, just so He could be both merciful to all and just to all.

What kind of a God would He be, if He would permit one human being who bears His Image to be lost to death. Even losing one would mean that Satan has more power than God. The defeat of Satan was through the power of Satan which is death. He is just that each person would freely choose his eternal fate. Every single human being will be judged on the basis of the Grace that he was given and what he did with that Gift.

"For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: 'I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." (Romans 9:17-18) Seems to me like Paul has a different view than yours.

It is right on. You have made a misapplication of the verses.

"One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" Romans 9:19-21

Read all of Romans 9, because its contradicting all that you are saying and it will provide clarity on GODs Soverignty and Justice in election. We know that GOD will judge all men, those who are saved (2 Cor. 5:10) and those who are prepared for destruction, but we dont know how he will judge: "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!" Romans 11:33

It's confirming what I am saying. You have again, misinterpreted a goodly portion of the Bible. To bad you did not read and understand vs 32. You claim Christ lost no one, yet you want Him to destroy His own Creatures bearing His Image.

On the contrary its you who do not understand the purpose and men of GOD creating man, again its for His Glory that he created everything, that he might be glory for himse

Well, you will need to start over. Refute the texts I gave to you. Find even one text that says God elects or chooses believers. That man is not responsible for his actions?

[EricH]

Here is an interesting verse that was used in the sermon last Sunday.

1 Chronicles 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

This says it plainly that if WE forsake God he will cast us off forever. We know that the promises of God last forever, are incorruptible, and that no man can take them from us, but it is when we decide ourselves to turn back from God to the very sins that Christ saved us from then we have forsaken him and he in turn will cast us off.

Committing one sin is not forsaking God. Forsaking God is when I turn my heart and mind back into my sins make them more important than following God or when I have sins in my life I refuse to let go.

You have taken this verse out of context. This is not speaking of salvation, It is addressed to the King of Israel (as was the same formula in 2 Chronicles 15:2 to King Asa) and speaks of God's rejecting them or accepting them as rulers. If you look earlier in the passage it speaks of God establishing Solomon's kingdom forever (1 Chronicles 28:7)

[Thaddaeus]

Erich,

You have taken this verse out of context. This is not speaking of salvation, It is addressed to the King of Israel (as was the same formula in 2 Chronicles 15:2 to King Asa) and speaks of God's rejecting them or accepting them as rulers. If you look earlier in the passage it speaks of God establishing Solomon's kingdom forever (1 Chronicles 28:7)

Cardcaptor is right on regarding his explanation of these verses. It has all to do with their souls. If it was simply a kingship, it would simply be a taking away and given to another. Much like happened to Saul with David. Saul also lost his soul besides the kingdom.

Kings in the old testament were supposed to be the vanguard of the theocratic kingdom working with God in ruling Isreal. God warned them of having kings, and when wicked kings existed, then Isreal also fell away. It is all about salvation, nothing to do with being king.

[antiaging]

I BET HALF THE PEOPLE WHO RESPOND TO THIS QUESTION DONT REALLY KNOW THE ANSWER DO THEY?

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Those scriptures seem to mean that if you stop believing the gospel and don't have faith anymore, you will go into perdition, or hell.

[BurnForChrist]

Thaddeus, thanks for your reply,

You said: I think I have realized it even more than you. Later in your post you seem to think that sin and God can mix. That just because God propitiated the sins of the world, that all men somehow cannot sin.

Your theology does not follow the Bible as much as you might think. The only reason mankind could not have an lasting relationship with God is because man had become mortal, through the judgement of death against Adam. That is what dead to sins means. Man could not do anything about either one. That is the whole reason for Christ in the first place.

Christ redeemed mankind from death, gave life, gave immortality to man. Christ overcame death. He also propitiated for the sins of the world. Christ did not eradicate sin, did not even change our human nature in this life, but He made it possible for those human beings who answered His universal call to repentance to be able to do so. God made it possible for a human being to meet God, through Christ. Your view also abrogates God's purpose in creating man.

The "saved" you keep refering to is the salvation of individual man's soul which is through faith. Christ did not save any souls on the Cross. He made it possible for mankind to do what man was created to do and be. He corrected the fall so mankind, every human being, could do what they were created to do, but do it freely.

You have misunderstood all that I have posted, when did I ever post that GOD and Sin can mix? Man couldn't have a relationship with GOD because a thing called Sin, something that is horribly wrong, in which death is the result thereof. Now all men are subject to the holy hatred of GOD that is his wrath that had to be satisfied, his justice had to be appeased, and thats exactly what Jesus Christ did upon the Cross, He bore our sins and The Father poured out his wrath upon his only begotten, that should have fallen upon you and I.

You fail to understand the conversion of the believer, you see the believer is given a new nature, a new heart, one that is capable of loving GOD. You see salvation is a supernatural work of GOD that will NEVER fail, for we are confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). Let Israel in Exodus be your example, he will complete what he started, he knows no failure and Jesus will not loose his own, those whom the Father has given him. The Sheep is not the world nor all of mankind, but those whom the Father has given him, does the world follow his voice? Does the world listen to a stranger? No! Only his sheep will hear his voice and follow him (John 10:5). “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word." John 17:6

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."

John 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

John 10:15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."

Matthew 20:28 "Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

When did I ever say that men somehow cannot sin? He saved us through the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit of the holy spirit, in which he grants us to believe (Titus 3:5; Philippians 1:26). Now we still have our flesh, that wars against the spirit, and we aren't perfect, but we are a new creature. We are no longer enslaved to sin or life a lifestyle thereof, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." (1John 3:9) We don't bear the fruits of death, but the fruits of the Spirit, "You shall know them by there fruits" (Matthew 7:20). By the life style they live.

You said: "He grants repentance to those that believe, who are then the elect. This text has no chosen in it. Faith is also a gift from God to all men. It is part of the heritage of being created in the Divine Image."

Philippians 1:29 "For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."

No the elect are the chosen before the foundations of the world, those who have been predestined to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will (Ephesians 1:4-5), it is granted on there behave to BELIEVE and to REPENT as Paul says in the text above, they are the elect, the chosen, thats what you fail to see.

You said: And what has any of this to do with believers. God chose individual people for a lot of different things. It has nothing to do with chosing believers. In fact the reason God chose most of these individuals is that He saw the righteousness of these individuals. This goes way back to Able, Enoch, Noah, Abraham. You talk of studying the Bible, maybe you aught to know of what you speak before you make such wild assertions.

Your response is in absolute contradiction to what Romans 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls). "That the purpose of GOD according to ELECTION." Jacob was the one saved, not Esau, He choose him not because of any "righteousness" or "good" that he did, but it says that before they were born, he didn't look at there lives. Look at the lives of these individuals. Jacob could not escape GOD, because he loved him, he even became a cripple. However Esau had so much riches he didn't need Jacob, yet GOD hated him. We see the purpose of GOD according to election, that we who are elected are saved, not because GOD foresaw anything, but has chosen us according to the good pleasure of His Will.

You said: Yes, and what you fail to understand, Hell does not even exist, except that Christ redeemed the world. He overcame death, the destruction of mankind. Read Gen 3:19. Do you believe dust has life? If one is to stand in judgement, one must first, be alive. He must be a human being, and not a pile of dust. Can you refute that understanding?

Universalism anyone? Hell doesn't even exist? Christ redeemed the world? Where on earth do you find this at? Jesus was the one who gave us clarity on the doctrine of hell, only the elect have been redeemed, his sheep that he laid his life down for. All will stand in judgment and it will take the strength of GOD to stand before him, saved or lost, you will be like a tiny wax figurine in front of a blast furnace.

Revelation 20:12-15 "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

2 Timothy 4:1 "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom"

You said: I do, but do you. You seem to limit its power to only some human beings. The Cross, the Work of Christ is universal in scope. We possess that new nature in the eschaton, but it is ONLY possible because of Christ. All men will be raised. Rom 6 is the baptism chapter. If you read further you will find that when we participate in that death and resurrection through baptism we become believers. Therein lies the difference. Man needs life first, before faith or any communion can be eternal. Since man could not do this, Christ did it for man. See all the texts I listed above.

No human being is in bondage to death and sin any longer. We have been freed from it, for the sole purpose of being able to freely choose for whom we desire to be a slave. We can become slaves of Christ, or become slaves of Satan. Man is free to choose and it is this freedom and what we do with it on which we will be judged.

I do NOT limit its power, the blood to cover the sins of every single human being so that they would be saved, because there is power in the blood but it will only be applied to the elect. Now we who are saved have been baptized into his death, and have died to sin, and now have been raised into the newness of life, he explains our conversion. How that we are no longer slaves to sin, we cannot serve it for it is indeed impossible because of the nature of the believer, how ever that does not make us sinless. No human being is in bondage to sin? On the contrary only we who are saved are not longer in bondage to sin, those who are not saved are in bondage to sin. That is what he is explaining, we (Those who are saved) are now under grace, not under the law. Not a slave to sin, but unto righteousness.

You said: You have a knack of really twisting scripture. yes, man is responsible and the Work of Christ on the Cross made man responsible. We are no longer beholden to the condemnation of Adam, death. Christ overcame death for us. Rom 9:14-16 is pertaining to the fact that God had mercy upon mankind. All human beings. God consigned all to disobedience (death) Rom 11:32, just so He could be both merciful to all and just to all.

What kind of a God would He be, if He would permit one human being who bears His Image to be lost to death. Even losing one would mean that Satan has more power than God. The defeat of Satan was through the power of Satan which is death. He is just that each person would freely choose his eternal fate. Every single human being will be judged on the basis of the Grace that he was given and what he did with that Gift.

You have a knack for really misunderstanding scripture. Only the saved are no longer under the condemnation of sin (romans 8:1), we now have life in the Son. Romans 9:14-16 tells us GODs sovereign mercy in the lives of individuals. We see GODs Justice in casting someone who is guilty into to hell, how does that mean Satan has more power than GOD? If satan had more power then he would be able to allow Christ's Sheep, the elect, to be lost, but Christ told us none of his sheep will be lost. He will judge with justice and righteous and we see that NON are righteous, only we who are saved have the righteousness of another, our LORD Jesus Christ. But those who do not have the Son will be judged guilty. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of GOD (Romans 3:23; c.f. Romans 3:19-20) yet you and I have no idea what this verse means and how terrifying it is. When reading scripture look at the context of it, Romans 11:32 is talking about Israel that has rejected the messiah.

You said: It is right on. You have made a misapplication of the verses.

No you misunderstand these verses he raise up pharaoh for one reason, to destroy him and show his power through him, that his name might be great among the nations. Again you think to much of men, he gets glory and uses men, for his own purpose, he works all things according to his will.

You said: It's confirming what I am saying. You have again, misinterpreted a goodly portion of the Bible. To bad you did not read and understand vs 32. You claim Christ lost no one, yet you want Him to destroy His own Creatures bearing His Image.

No what you don't understand is why in the first place would Paul ask the question, why then does GOD still blame us? For who can resist his will? He imputes this question because he just told us that GOD raised up pharaoh that he might show his power in destroying Him and he hardened his heart, and did not show mercy on him. So he asks why then does he find fault, how can resist his will? Paul answers back in Verses 19-21, who are you O'man to talk back to GOD? Shall the thing that was formed say to him that formed it, why have you make me like this? Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? Christ will not lose one of his sheep, meaning that they will not be lost, but they will be saved, "All that the father has given me WILL COME TO ME." The world will not come to him, only his sheep.

You said: On the contrary its you who do not understand the purpose and men of GOD creating man, again its for His Glory that he created everything, that he might be glory for himse

Edited September 7, 2007 by BurnForChrist

[Thaddaeus]

BurnForChrist,

You have misunderstood all that I have posted, when did I ever post that GOD and Sin can mix? Man couldn't have a relationship with GOD because a thing called Sin, something that is horribly wrong, in which death is the result thereof. Now all men are subject to the holy hatred of GOD that is his wrath that had to be satisfied, his justice had to be appeased, and thats exactly what Jesus Christ did upon the Cross, He bore our sins and The Father poured out his wrath upon his only begotten, that should have fallen upon you and I.

Man is not subject to the holy wrath of God first. God loves mankind. God loves mankind, but hates the sin that man does. While we were yet sinners Christ died for us. If God is so angry and wrathful of man, why does God save mankind?

What justice? God has some higher authority by which He must act? There is some power to which God must answer?

It is not a matter of should have. It is a matter that it did. Man was subjected to death, not because of anything other men did, or individual man did, but ONLY because of the one sin of Adam. That was an unjust condemnation. By overcoming that death, that sentence, which was eternal death, man was freed from that sentence, from its bondage. Mankind can ONLY die spiritually now. God in his wisdom, even through Christ is redeeming mankind, did not change our human natures in this life. Man is appointed to die biologically, once. It purpose is to shed the fallen flesh. The reason man sins. We will all rise to new bodies, glorified bodies at the last day.

But man can still die spiritually and it is ONLY because Christ redeemed mankind from physcial death and propitiated through His blood the sins of the world. It made forgiveness of sins possible so that each and every person who desired to be in union with God, could do so in this life through the remission of the sins they will commit.

Let Israel in Exodus be your example, he will complete what he started, he knows no failure and Jesus will not loose his own, those whom the Father has given him.

In both cases He does not lose any. Either of mankind, nor those who believe. But respective of man's response to God, man is ALWAYS the one who initiates the leaving. See the very first man, who did not even have a fallen nature. He freely decided to leave God's presence. Man, a believer is fully capable of leaving the fold. Israel is the best example. They constantly left Him. Constant chastisement did not teach lasting lessions for them.

The Sheep is not the world nor all of mankind, but those whom the Father has given him, does the world follow his voice?

Nobody ever so claimed. However, if you read carefully you will see that Christ died for "the sheep'. In order that it is possible to be a shepard of HIS Sheep. His sheep is an impossibility without saving mankind from death. He died for sinners, sheep, in order that man is free to choose. Those that believe are HIS SHEEP. Read with care and understanding.

Does the world listen to a stranger? No! Only his sheep will hear his voice and follow him (John 10:5).

Read vs 6-9. then vs 11 tells you point blank for whom He died?

[Christ_Sheep]

Once saved always saved? No, it is not scriptural as some have stated. Also, there would be no need for Jesus to say, "be watchful" if that were the case. Jesus would have no need to be married to the backslider, if, in fact, that were truly the case. Salvation is a free gift from god that no demon in hell, or principality can take away ... but humans can forfeit their own salvation by living a life estranged from the word of god.

It is an ongoing process. Moreover, everyday we, as believers, need to stay prayed up and rapture ready. Some may say lord, this isn't fair, I've been saved for most of my adult life and, in one screw up you come back, and I don't make it into heaven. Since Jesus defined love by "action", it being a choice and not a feeling, consistency and predictability is important and expected of every believer. Once saved always saved is false.

Edited October 26, 2007 by Christ_Sheep

[zaidenmom]

A young child was asked how many True God