Jorge S Posted October 23, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 289 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/03/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/04/1963 Share Posted October 23, 2006 I support Apothanein Kerdos and Ben on posts 15 and 16 of this thread. I did not have any 'ability' to know God until I prayed for faith. I was an atheist and my 'discernment' was clouded by my own presuppositions, therefore I always had an alternative explanation to the Biblical perspective. There was a mindblowing and irreversible difference in my understanding of the Bible before and after my conversion; same books and chapters but totally different meaning and impact. Discernment is inherent to our thought process and we use it all the time in most of what we consciously do. Christian faith is a spiritual gift that does not proceed from but is bestowed upon the believer. If I am to have faith in my own ability I would then -deliberately or candidly yet automatically nonetheless- remove God from the equation. So I think the debated statement is false and self-defeating with regards to Christian faith. God Was, Is and Will not cease to Be whether we ignore Him or acknowledge Him. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua-777 Posted October 23, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 410 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,102 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 522 Days Won: 6 Joined: 10/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/07/1984 Share Posted October 23, 2006 "People do not have faith exclusively in God; their belief also consists of faith in their own ability to discern that God exists." I'd say true, for some, but Some beliefes consist of faith In their own ability to discern that God doesnt exist. The separation of agnostic, and aithiest, agnostics believe there is a God, or somthing greater out there, Aithiests shut out the possibility in their heart. I feel that many accept Jesus in their faith that somthing bigger exists, Usualy that opens up the revelation of Jesus Christ in their lives more, but it can also lead them to putting their faith in Gods which are not Gods, nearly pagan Idols in new names and forms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondeve Posted October 24, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 117 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/02/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/21/1986 Author Share Posted October 24, 2006 secondeve, if I may use an anology to give an example. If one was curious about sailing they would need to learn all they could about it. They would have to learn about the multitudes of working parts on the boat, how to properly use the sails, become knowledgeable about wind currents and weather, learn tidal information and how to read it, master navigation and chart reading, etc.., etc... Now one could read all about these things and even converse and debate about them with experts all they want, but unless they stepped on to the boat to put it all together for themselves it would be meaningless and useless as shouting at the boat from the dock. There's a specific moment in this process that my question is hinging upon, which is the moment a person decides to set sail. Between reading about boats and embarking on one is the decision to do so: and it is human reasoning which leads us to that point. We trust what we have read to be sufficient, and perhaps everything we experience once on the boat retrospectively confirms that trust. But at the point at which we lack the experience of sailing, we have only what the books say and our own judgement as to whether or not it is trustworthy to convince us to set sail. What I am saying is, when we trace back faith to the moment of decision, a case can be made that that decision hinged upon our own self-belief: the idea that we understood the theory, that we believed the facts. If we hadn't understood the theory, if we had disbelieved the facts, we would have come to a different decision. It was human reasoning which led to the experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emeraldgirl Posted October 24, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 179 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/07/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/08/1971 Share Posted October 24, 2006 There's a specific moment in this process that my question is hinging upon, which is the moment a person decides to set sail. Between reading about boats and embarking on one is the decision to do so: and it is human reasoning which leads us to that point. We trust what we have read to be sufficient, and perhaps everything we experience once on the boat retrospectively confirms that trust. But at the point at which we lack the experience of sailing, we have only what the books say and our own judgement as to whether or not it is trustworthy to convince us to set sail. What I am saying is, when we trace back faith to the moment of decision, a case can be made that that decision hinged upon our own self-belief: the idea that we understood the theory, that we believed the facts. If we hadn't understood the theory, if we had disbelieved the facts, we would have come to a different decision. It was human reasoning which led to the experience. I might not be the likeliest person to respond to your question, but I'll tell you as mechanically as I can how it was for me - the moment I decided to "set sail" in the Christian faith. For myself, I had the information, both formally and in poetic forms (such as Christian music) for what it meant to trust in God. But it didn't mean that much until I had a problem that I was simply not able to fix myself. It was like all that head-knowledge about trusting in God finally *clicked* into my brain. It was like the "Aha!" kind of moment where you see the truth of something you've known for ages. So, yes, in a way, there was a fact of mentally saying, "This information I have heard for so long must be true." and so that would presume that I believed my insight to be correct. But there is also an emotional non-knowledge element; that is what spiritual experiences are. There was an emotional element in addition to just the pure logic of saying, "Well, I'm not making this problem any better through my own efforts. Might as well wager that trusting in God will make it better." I think the emotional non-knowledge element of spiritual experiences provide the glue that makes people "certain" that they have found the true thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted October 24, 2006 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted October 24, 2006 The psalmist said, Trust in God and lean not on your own understanding. Obviously you don't have enough faith to trust in Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightofJesus Posted October 24, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 362 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/04/1955 Share Posted October 24, 2006 secondeve, if I may use an anology to give an example. If one was curious about sailing they would need to learn all they could about it. They would have to learn about the multitudes of working parts on the boat, how to properly use the sails, become knowledgeable about wind currents and weather, learn tidal information and how to read it, master navigation and chart reading, etc.., etc... Now one could read all about these things and even converse and debate about them with experts all they want, but unless they stepped on to the boat to put it all together for themselves it would be meaningless and useless as shouting at the boat from the dock. There's a specific moment in this process that my question is hinging upon, which is the moment a person decides to set sail. Between reading about boats and embarking on one is the decision to do so: and it is human reasoning which leads us to that point. We trust what we have read to be sufficient, and perhaps everything we experience once on the boat retrospectively confirms that trust. But at the point at which we lack the experience of sailing, we have only what the books say and our own judgement as to whether or not it is trustworthy to convince us to set sail. What I am saying is, when we trace back faith to the moment of decision, a case can be made that that decision hinged upon our own self-belief: the idea that we understood the theory, that we believed the facts. If we hadn't understood the theory, if we had disbelieved the facts, we would have come to a different decision. It was human reasoning which led to the experience. secondeve You want to hear that the decision to become a Christian is a matter of the mind. It isn't, it is all about the heart, the spirit of man. When the Spirit of God starts to move on the spirit of a man it has nothing to do with the mind. Our hearts literally start to cry out to God and He then fills us with Himself. There is no way you can understand this unless you have experienced it and become born again. Being born again is about our spirit waking up to the things of God and letting go of the things of this world. We are not made perfect in the flesh but we are in our spirit. As we walk out our salvation we make mistakes as we are learning the things of God. That is why it appears as though Christians do not agree. We are all at different levels in our walk, but all are heading in the same direction. To be strong in the Lord is to go through a lot of trials which strengthen our faith. Faith is not something in our mind it is in our heart. Yes we have to make decisions daily on doing the right thing or the wrong thing, so yes there are decisions to make but not the way you may understand it. So if you should make the decision to accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour then you will find out for yourself all the answers you are trying to get while not with the Lord. He has all the answers in His Word, Jesus Christ the Saviour of the world!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emeraldgirl Posted October 24, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 179 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/07/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/08/1971 Share Posted October 24, 2006 The psalmist said, Trust in God and lean not on your own understanding. Obviouslt you don't have enough faith to trust in Him. Are you addressing me or second eve? If you're addressing me, it's ironic that you use that particular scripture, as that is the exact one that hit me in the AHA! moment I just described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted October 24, 2006 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted October 24, 2006 The psalmist said, Trust in God and lean not on your own understanding. Obviouslt you don't have enough faith to trust in Him. Are you addressing me or second eve? If you're addressing me, it's ironic that you use that particular scripture, as that is the exact one that hit me in the AHA! moment I just described. Both of you for that matter. No one ever said that following Jesus is going to be easy. The bible isn't about you or your strength or weaknesses, it's about Him and His love for mankind and what He can do for you. The bible says that without faith, it is impossible to please God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted October 24, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Share Posted October 24, 2006 What I am saying is, when we trace back faith to the moment of decision, a case can be made that that decision hinged upon our own self-belief: the idea that we understood the theory, that we believed the facts. If we hadn't understood the theory, if we had disbelieved the facts, we would have come to a different decision. It was human reasoning which led to the experience. I'd have to disagree. Though I did not come from a religious family I had a reverence for God at a tremendously young age (6 or 7). Nothing stands out in my mind as a "defining moment", nor did even concieve of any "theory" for my belief. I just remember feeling like God was above me, and I respected Him, even at that age. I did not accept Christ as my Savior until I was 14, and there was no "theory" or "rationalization" to the choice. I just made it because I "knew" it was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts