Unbelievers - You're dead and before God on Judgement Day

[Joshua-777]

Since all the accounts come from people obviously desiring such an event, I can`t take it for proof.

Since people want it, they might lie about it happening, or experience a mental "burp", and become sincerely persuaded, that they had experienced something, that did not really happened.

So people lie to themselves? That doesn't seem logical in the extent, that all Christians develop a personal relationship with the Lord, and the actions God has in our lives are too impacting to lie to ourselves.

Yes it's true if you lie to yourself you can force yourself to believe it, but you can't force yourself to experience it. Us as Christians know and experience God in our lives.

[WayneB]

You, of course, realise, that Bible is not an authoritative source to me?

Set aside the Bible for now...

How do you explain the creed I speak of, especially after being written in a "text of great historical value" (your words)? Do you believe it was just made up by a bunch of lunatics? If it was, do you not think it would have been challenged in other works of literature of the time? It is neither challenged nor supported...yet this eye-witness account appears in a text of great historical value?

Imagine the Wall Street Journal publishing an article about an eye-witness account of some hard to believe event. The total eye witnesses exceeded 500!!! If the list of witnesses proved to be bogus, do you not think other media sources would refute the story? Of coarse! It happens everyday. Where are the secular sources of the day that specifically refute the creed I speak of?

[WayneB]

And yes, I am proud and arrogant.

I don't see pride and arrogance. I see fear and hopelessness.

[MorningGlory]

Alright, let`s address the things one by one.

Cobalt: To answer you... What I am is pretty much incompatible with christianity, as it is presented now. While I do admit, that Jesus had a lot of sound ideas, I firmly disagree with "If you are struck on one cheek, turn forth another.", for example. Instead - "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

To put it simply, if I were to try and convert to christianity, AS IT WAS PRESENTED TO ME, I would have to betray all that I stand for. Such dishonor is not acceptable.

If I were asked by Jesus, why don`t I accept him as god... I`d ask - "Why did you do that, at Shalazi pass? Why did you have to do that?"

Undone: Question is a bit more complicated, then you imagine it to be.

Namely, I myself can offer some valid reasons for christianity. That does not absolves christianity from all the contradictions I`ve seen and read about.

As I said, I would gladly discuss, but there is much more then simple "Why believe?", that I would ask, and I would need much more answers then "Because Jesus loves you."

I need logical reasons for everything. Logical and valid reasons, why it has to be SO, and not other way. And I need someone with really open mind, if you want a discussion. Many a time I would suggest cynical and "ungodly" reasons for bible lore and christian actions - unless it can be handled without personal umbrage, I`d rather not even start.

Glory: I was born in USSR. Aka, brought up and lived in atheistic country. For me, christianity began to be pervasive only in last years. And frankly, I do NOT like people, who deem it right to lecture me in my OWN home about how sinful I am, when I did not invited them in in the first place.

Oh... By the way, under pervasiveness, I mean personal annoyment factor. I used to live all my childhood across the street from the church, and it never bothered me. But when I have people barge in on me, and taking offence, when I say I do NOT want them to yell at me in my own home, I have to bodily toss them out.

I'm not sure what you mean by people barging in on you and yelling at you. Is this what the church does in Russia???? Do you still live there? Well, I wouldn't like that either but, I guarantee you, that is not a normal Christian witnessing strategy. Here, in the U.S., it would be a crime to force your way into someone's home.

[Guest]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Иоанна 3:16 Ибо так возлюбил Бог мир, что отдал Сына Своего Единородного, дабы всякий верующий в Него, не погиб, но имел жизнь вечную

ХIунда аьлча, иштта дукха дезна Далла дуьне, Шен цхьаъ бен воцу КIант велла, милла а Цунах тешаш верг хIаллак ца хилийта, амма цуьнан абаде вахар хилийта. ХIунда аьлча Дала ца хьажийна Шен КIант дуьнентIе кхел ян, амма Цуьнгахула дуьне кIелхьар даккха. от Иоанна 3:16

[Guest]

Roman Road to Salvation

Дорога ко спасению через послание к Римлянам

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Римлянам 3:23 потому что все согрешили и лишены славы Божией,

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Римлянам 6:23 Ибо возмездие за грех - смерть, а дар Божий - жизнь вечная во Христе Иисусе, Господе нашем.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Римлянам 5:8 Но Бог Свою любовь к нам доказывает тем, что Христос умер за нас, когда мы были еще грешниками.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Римлянам 10:9 Ибо если устами твоими будешь исповедывать Иисуса Господом и сердцем твоим веровать, что Бог воскресил Его из мертвых, то спасешься.

http://www.kpem.org/49666.html

From God's Kids With Love

Love, Joe

[undone]

Now that is low.

Accept Jesus in your heart, and you will never again feel shame for what you do... Is it?

This reason is understandable, but cowardly. How can Jesus forgive something, that was not done to him?

...

This particular reason I simply don`t like. It reeks of indulgence selling. Noone should be able to trade in their guilty conscience for a prayer. It is NOT an equal exchange.

Is what?

How can Jesus forgive something, that was not done to him? The bible says, "He who knew no sin, became sin for us". Are you familiar with what happened to Jesus while He was on the cross? Are you familiar with the Cup of the Lord's Wrath? You need to understand these things and more to understand the answer. We are clearly going over your head.

"Indulgence selling" ??? Are you referring to licentiousness?

Nobody is trading their guilty conscience for a prayer. You are trading your guilt for Christ's innocence. Christ is trading places with you in that He takes the punishment you deserved for your sin.

[Ishamael]

Ook, let`s deal with it in turns.

_____

Cobalt:

There is a difference between respecting beliefs and accepting them.

Let me assure you, I have absolutely nothing against YOUR belief in Christ, and I wholeheartedly support your freedom to do so.

However, I myself do not subscribe to such belief. What I want to find out, if there IS some way to communicate across this ideological difference without compromising either of our systems.

You may notice, that I in NO way infer that YOU are wrong in your assessment of Jesus. Instead, I say, that it does not applies to me, as I have different set of axioms, and explain my own views, so some common language could be developed.

I`m entirely willing to consider the possibility of Christ existing, and I can construct models, which include such possibility (see my earlier posts about how`d I interact with him at Supreme Judgement). What I am asking for, is for you to account for my disbelief, and try to put your arguments with regard for this disbelief, as I make my theoretic constructs where Jesus existing is considered a fact.

In short - try to imagine for a second, that I am right, and there is no Jesus currently. What would you do?

_____

Wayne, historical texts are not meant to be taken for bona fide truth.

USSR had taught me, that history can be rewritten entirely too easily. Thus, I can`t take the 'eyewitness' proof. If that was true, then hundreds of millions of people had witnessed that communism is the true and only path.

Any historical account bears the personal attitude of a person writing it. So does Bible.

Bible was written by devout believers - those people had practically created the basis for the Church. Would it not be prudent to recognise their bias towards Christ? They sincerely believed, that all that happens was the work of Christ - could they not explain by Christ`s intervention that what had other reasons, in their fervor?

Thus, I can`t take Bible for the accurate source, much less as infallible truth. There is too many contradictions and inaccuracies in it to do so.

And yes, Bible was refuted time and time again. If you want, take a look around the net. You`ll find more then fair share of articles pointing out Bible`s fallacies.

_____

Glory:

Jehovas` Witnesses are the worst offender. I`ve had to toss two down the stairs before they learned not to try and force their way into my door.

Though, I can`t really say much for other denominations. I remember I was once escorted out of church by priest, when I went in to put a candle by my friend`s request.

_____

Undone:

Catholic church practiced "indulgence" selling in the middle ages.

Putting it simply, "indulgence" was the paper, sealed and signed by cardinal or Pope himself, which "by Christ`s will" absolved the buyer from all and any sins he had committed priorly to buying said "indulgence".

In my opinion, notion that "Jesus forgives your sins" is similar to the practice described earlier. Aka, in exchange for your allegiance, Jesus dismisses all the facts that might`ve caused you guilty conscience.

Maybe it is welcome for people... But in my opinion it`s dishonorable. Should I feel a guilt before a certain person, why would Jesus (which is not that person) do anything with forgiving it? I`d need forgiveness of a person towards which I feel guilt.

That boils down to simple fact, yet again - I don`t think Jesus has any business forgiving my sins. They are mine, and it is my duty to account for them. To weasel out by Jesus would be low.

Of course, you have to take in account, that my understanding of sin is radically different from what is prescribed by Bible, and I in NO way feel guilty for such "sins" as lust, sloth or wrath. (In fact, my opinion of seven mortal sins is that the problem is addressed from the wrong side. Sins would be the consequences of experiencing any of those in inappropriate manner or time.)

_____

FreshnoJoe:

Please, do NOT post on languages you do not understand. As far as I can make it out, you wanted to post Russian translations of some of the verses. There is no need for that - first, I understand English just fine, and second - you had posted on several Cyrillic languages. Russian, Ukrainian, and I think Kirgisian or maybe Mongol. Suffice to say, that last one I certainly can`t read.

Edited June 20, 2007 by Ishamael

[WayneB]

Wayne, historical texts are not meant to be taken for bona fide truth.

Agreed but "texts of great historical value" would not contain bold faced lies. They may have a different perspective and understanding of certain historical events but they would not have the claims of lunatics or bold faced lies within them...and if they did, scholars of the day would challenge the ridiculous claims and the text would be deemed worthless. There is no middle ground here. Either these eye witnesses were raving lunatics and liars OR they truly witnessed and saw the resurrected Christ.

Jehovas` Witnesses are the worst offender. I`ve had to toss two down the stairs before they learned not to try and force their way into my door.

You are now confusing "religion" with followers of Christ. One of the core tenants of the Christian faith is the belief that Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh, God incarnate, and that He physically conquered death. The Jehovah Witnesses do not believe in either. Do not confuse them with true followers of Christ.

Catholic church practiced "indulgence" selling in the middle ages.

Yes they did and it was wrong and un-Biblical. They put a price of GRACE. This was one of the main reasons why Martin Luther rebuked the Catholic Church and rightfully so. Religion is man-made and nothing more than an expression of a man's belief and focus. Followers of Jesus Christ are different, which is why they are so unaccepted throughout the world. People do not want to come to terms with their sin. They do not want to submit to anyone. They want complete independence. They want to earn their own way. They feel threatened by GRACE...they just don't know what to do with it or about it so religions are formed and rules are set. That isn't God's way. God gives us GRACE and all we need is FAITH. He does it all for us. We just have to receive His GIFT.

Be Blessed,

wayne

Edited June 20, 2007 by Wayne B.

[Ishamael]

Well... If they put Bible under my nose, they must be claiming to adhere to Christ, no?

I am no telepath - I can`t verify what people really believe. If they tell me, that they believe in Christ, there`s little else I can do to verify their beliefs.

___

That is exactly what I said, Wayne.

From my viewpoint, chances are, that Bible`s account of Jesus being cricified have high probability to be truth - other sources suggest, that this punishment was common in Roman empire, and that Jesus certainly could be sentenced to crucification.

Similarly, the account of Jesus being resurrected is most likely a folklore. Beautiful story made up to give a bad tale a good end. If Jesus just died, it would not be all that good for those, who believed in him, no? And so, they "resurrected" Jesus to support their belief.

No other sources offer similar accounts of resurrection, and modern medical knowledge suggests, that it`s highly unlikely. Therefore, I do not think that part with resurrection is true.

____

There is one problem. Christianity puts forward entirely too rigid sins. One of the reasons why people not like Christianity all that much, is because Christianity demands they ask forgiveness for what they deem to be correct and acceptable.

Edited June 20, 2007 by Ishamael