Remember the Sabbath

[nanasimmons]

Galatians 4:21-31 Illustrates God "Two" covenants... as does Hebrews 12:18-29

Your user name Yod seems to indicate that you are Jewish...What does Mt. Sinai represent to you?

[Guest yod]

Galatians 4:21-31 Illustrates God "Two" covenants... as does Hebrews 12:18-29

Your user name Yod seems to indicate that you are Jewish...What does Mt. Sinai represent to you?

Galatians is addressing legalism. Do you know what legalism is?

According to the American Heritage Dictionary, legalism is demanding a strict adherence to a particular religious code or morality. I have not once suggested that you must observe Sabbath as I do; or in any way at all.

However, it is being implied by you and by Cephas that anyone who observes the Sabbath on the actual biblical sabbath is "wrong" though neither of you can offer any proof or reason for that. You would impose your particular religious code upon those who differ with your morality.

By definition, that is legalism.

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No...I am not jewish. I am a christian that discovered the Bible was a jewish book. Written in hebrew and jewish-greek by jews and to jews. If you try to understand it without that perspective, you will get a skewed idea of what it is saying.

I have studied every christian theology and perspective of every topic you know. I know what most christians are going to say before they say it because I am so familiar with what is taught and accepted.

I also find much christian teaching shallow (at best) compared to the simplest messianic jewish teachers like Marty Waldman, Amnon Shor, Ari Sorko-Ram, Ofer Amitai, David Chernoff, Jeff Seif, Michael Wolf, Jamie Cowan, Michael Stepakoff, etc, etc, etc....

A person who is raised jewish and has their eyes opened through salvation knows things about the faith that books and seminaries can't teach because The Bible is their history book. It is their story.

Another thing about jewish believers that seems unique and rare in christianity is their humility, grace, and love. Especially when you compare it to the average christian who throws a tantrum when their views are the least bit challenged. They heard it at church so it must be true!?! They tend to read the bible through a particular theological perspective and try to make everything "fit" instead of reading what it says and adjusting to that.

Too many christians don't know how much they believe is theological device based on interpretations of third-hand translations; and not actually stated in scripture...but that wouldn't be a problem if one is humble enough to be teachable.

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Sinai?

It is the very foundation of the Word of God. It is the first time God spoke to man in written form. Yeshua and all the Apostles loved the Torah. Post-biblical misunderstanding (and sometimes outright bigotry) has defiled christians into a knee-jerk reaction to anything that looks jewish.

That is how 6 million jews were exterminated in the most christian country in Europe...and their murder has been justified throughout christian history.

Proverbs 30:5 - EVERY Word of God is pure. It is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.

The New Covenant is given to the House of Judah and the House of Israel. They are told that the Torah will be written on their heart. I wouldn't expect a gentile who has no understanding of what the Torah is to know what that means.

But we can't expect to find the answer from a Roman in the 4th century or a German in the 16th Century. They tend to read the Bible backwards...and through greek philosophical lenses. Forget theological interpretation and post-biblical commentaries. Read the Bible and let it say only what it actually says.

btw...there are more than 2 covenants listed in the Bible.

The New(est) Covenant is different than the Sinai Covenant not because it is a new set of rules, but because:

1. the method of atonement for sin has changed. There is now a better sacrifice...yet blood sacrifice is still required.

2. The Holy Spirit was given to empower the saint

3. Gentiles were joined to Israel without having to become jews

I'm sure there are more differences but God hasn't changed His mind about what sin is...

[Guest yod]

The "one new man" is past, present and future. It was first manifest when gentiles came into overwhelmingly jewish congregations of the 1st century and accepted as brothers...

The wall of partition was built up again by pride; and christianity became a new "religion" that left it's root.

There is an awakening happening though....

The majority of Jews are Judaizers and it is a huge majority of the world Jewish population who do not worship Christ.

The majority of gentiles are pagans and it is a huge majority of the world gentile population who do not worship Christ.

[Beta]

I am not a learned person and only know what I read in the Bible.

But no, I wouldn't put all the blame on the Christians, they are as bad as each other at division. Though it must have started when anathema against the Jews was declared in 325 AD ?

In the book of Acts all the new converts met with the Apostles on the Sabbath and also kept the feasts of the Lord. Sunday as day of worship was unheard of - until all their followers were persecuted, scattered and / or put to death. Then suddenly we have new days for worship and new christian churches preaching a different Jesus.

Have I got it wrong ?

[Guest shiloh357]

I am not a learned person and only know what I read in the Bible.

But no, I wouldn't put all the blame on the Christians, they are as bad as each other at division. Though it must have started when anathema against the Jews was declared in 325 AD ?

In the book of Acts all the new converts met with the Apostles on the Sabbath and also kept the feasts of the Lord. Sunday as day of worship was unheard of - until all their followers were persecuted, scattered and / or put to death. Then suddenly we have new days for worship and new christian churches preaching a different Jesus.

Have I got it wrong ?

No, you have it right. The Jews bear an unbiblical stigma in the church, as does anything appears "Jewish." What you are seeing in this thread is an inability to distinguish between legalism and Torah. What is perceived as being criticism against Torah, is really addressing legalism. However, centuries of indoctrination have made anything "Jewish" to be bad and something to be sunned, and of course the Jews are made out to he be the "villains" of the New Testament.

Ever notice that it is just the Jews are criticized for holding on to their culture. You can be a Hispanic, Native American, African, Asian, and still use your culture as an expression of faith in Christ. If Jews do the same thing, we are called "Judaizers" and people whine and whine that we are "under the law" and all that rot. We are expected to eat ham, give up the Sabbath, and abandon our culture altogether upon being saved. No such demand is made upon other peoples, and in fact, churches even have festivals celebrating cultural expressions of faith in Christ (unless that culture happens to look "Jewish).

[nanasimmons]

Galatians 4:21-31 Illustrates God "Two" covenants... as does Hebrews 12:18-29

Your user name Yod seems to indicate that you are Jewish...What does Mt. Sinai represent to you?

Galatians is addressing legalism. Do you know what legalism is?

According to the American Heritage Dictionary, legalism is demanding a strict adherence to a particular religious code or morality. I have not once suggested that you must observe Sabbath as I do; or in any way at all.

However, it is being implied by you and by Cephas that anyone who observes the Sabbath on the actual biblical sabbath is "wrong" though neither of you can offer any proof or reason for that. You would impose your particular religious code upon those who differ with your morality.

By definition, that is legalism.

-----------------------------------------------------

No...I am not jewish. I am a christian that discovered the Bible was a jewish book. Written in hebrew and jewish-greek by jews and to jews. If you try to understand it without that perspective, you will get a skewed idea of what it is saying.

I have studied every christian theology and perspective of every topic you know. I know what most christians are going to say before they say it because I am so familiar with what is taught and accepted.

I also find much christian teaching shallow (at best) compared to the simplest messianic jewish teachers like Marty Waldman, Amnon Shor, Ari Sorko-Ram, Ofer Amitai, David Chernoff, Jeff Seif, Michael Wolf, Jamie Cowan, Michael Stepakoff, etc, etc, etc....

A person who is raised jewish and has their eyes opened through salvation knows things about the faith that books and seminaries can't teach because The Bible is their history book. It is their story.

Another thing about jewish believers that seems unique and rare in christianity is their humility, grace, and love. Especially when you compare it to the average christian who throws a tantrum when their views are the least bit challenged. They heard it at church so it must be true!?! They tend to read the bible through a particular theological perspective and try to make everything "fit" instead of reading what it says and adjusting to that.

Too many christians don't know how much they believe is theological device based on interpretations of third-hand translations; and not actually stated in scripture...but that wouldn't be a problem if one is humble enough to be teachable.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sinai?

It is the very foundation of the Word of God. It is the first time God spoke to man in written form. Yeshua and all the Apostles loved the Torah. Post-biblical misunderstanding (and sometimes outright bigotry) has defiled christians into a knee-jerk reaction to anything that looks jewish.

That is how 6 million jews were exterminated in the most christian country in Europe...and their murder has been justified throughout christian history.

Proverbs 30:5 - EVERY Word of God is pure. It is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.

The New Covenant is given to the House of Judah and the House of Israel. They are told that the Torah will be written on their heart. I wouldn't expect a gentile who has no understanding of what the Torah is to know what that means.

But we can't expect to find the answer from a Roman in the 4th century or a German in the 16th Century. They tend to read the Bible backwards...and through greek philosophical lenses. Forget theological interpretation and post-biblical commentaries. Read the Bible and let it say only what it actually says.

btw...there are more than 2 covenants listed in the Bible.

The New(est) Covenant is different than the Sinai Covenant not because it is a new set of rules, but because:

1. the method of atonement for sin has changed. There is now a better sacrifice...yet blood sacrifice is still required.

2. The Holy Spirit was given to empower the saint

3. Gentiles were joined to Israel without having to become jews

I'm sure there are more differences but God hasn't changed His mind about what sin is...

And I'm the one one with the knee-jerk reaction?? Okayyyyy.........

So you reconize that Sinai represents legalism. The word Judiasm/Law better fits and you know. Paul was not speaking of exta-biblical practices and costoms in either passage. In Gal 1 paul said the things that he was teaching were directly revealed to him by Yeshua. In Gal. 5:11 Paul says that if he were still teaching circumcision why would the Jews persecute me? That fact that I am still being persecuted proves that I am preaching salvation through the cross of Christ alone.

v. 12

I only wish that those who trouble you would not just remove their foreskins, but would amputate their privites right off!!!

I have seen posts that ask" can God make a rock that He can't move". Well according to you He made two of them..It was possible for Moses to carry them down Mt. Sinai but immpossible for God to lift them and set them aside.(I say He can and He did...)

In Exo.32

God was going to kill all the Israelites in the wilderness because of the golden calf until Moses made a plea for them but pointing out the fact that He had just went through the trouble of saving them out of the hands of the egyptians,and showed many people His glory and might,It wouldn't look to good if then you just brought them out only to destroy them.God would have been perfectly just if He did,instead repented of the evil which He thought to do unto His people..And as it explains in Romans 9 God can do as He pleases as He sees fit when He sees fit to do it.. For His Glory!!! Jesus told His disciple, if I should that I would, whats that to you??

The picture at Mt.Sinai as a whole was nothing but a glorious ministration of death and condemnation...The whole representation of God as an absolute Soverein and severe Judge. Nothing declared Him as a Father,gracious and meciful. Fire is the symbol of Divine wrath and judgment.But ,The fire of God's wrath has spent it's self on the person of their subsititute.God was now reconciled to them,therefore they had an inalienable standing before Him-not as trembling criminals,but as accepted sons. "for you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but you have recieved the 'Spirit' of adoption,whereby we cry,Abba Father" Romans 8:15 ( In Jusaism do the Jews call God their Father??)

"For ye have not come unto to mount that might touched" is a figurative way of saying that Christ has opened a way into something infinitely superior to a system which,had nothing better than "a worldly sanctuary" and "carnal ordinances".

Mount Sinai was a material thing,exposed to the outward senses, and was an emblem of the entire order of thing connected with Judaism.As such,it was in complete contrast from the order of things brought in by Christ,which is wholly spiritually,invisible, and celestial. As Jesus said to the woman at the well in John 4:21,23

The problem is I don't bow down ,worship, and idolize my Jewish brothers and sisters and their former religion/Judaism and that seems to bother you..Nor do I think more highly of myself than I ought to. In Christianity, there is neither Greek or Jew,free or slave, male nor female in Christ Jesus.

It sounds like you are reliant on Jewish scholars to interpret the scriptures for you, and you don't listen to what the Bible is really telling us.

Some people read others writings and then make the scriptures line up to what they've already read, Others read the scriptures then others' writing and make sure that the others writings line up with what they are being taught in the Bible..

[Guest shiloh357]

So you reconize that Sinai represents legalism. The word Judiasm/Law better fits and you know.

No Sinai does not represent legalism, nor does the word "Judaism" fit. Judaism and the Torah are not necessarily synonomous.

Judaism did not exist until 72 A. D. No one here is advocating that anyone live according to Judaism. The problem is that you are trying to argue something that you are knowledgeable enough to address.

Secondly, Sinai is actually a picture of freedom and the giving of the Torah is connected with freedom from bondage. It your traditions that have taught you that the Torah is bondage, even though the Bible says no such thing. Legalism and Torah are not the same thing. Legalism is a perversion of Torah observance that seeks righteousness on a works-based platform. Following the Torah is not legalistic.

Furthermore, your use of Galatians is inappropriate here because Paul was not angry that anyone was keeping the Torah. Paul was angry that the Galatians had been decieved into thinking that they had to become physical Jews and convert to the Temple religion in Israel to be saved. Paul himself, was Torah observant, and it would have been hypocritical for him to condemn that in someone else.

The picture at Mt.Sinai as a whole was nothing but a glorious ministration of death and condemnation...The whole representation of God as an absolute Soverein and severe Judge. Nothing declared Him as a Father,gracious and meciful.

I guess somebody does not read their Bibile. Here is what was said at Mount Sinai:

And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

(Exodus 34:6-7)

Actually, what you don't realize is that what separated the Torah given at Sinai from other contemporaneous law codes (such as the Code of Hammurabi) of that day, was the fact that it does offer mercy. No other law code offers man a way to atone for his sin. No other law code of the day offered the concept of a substutionary sacrifice for both the individual and the nation. Forgiveness, Grace and Mercy are over the Torah. The Festivals given at Sinai, typify and foreshadow God's plan of redemption/salvation for the whole world.

Not only that, but the sacrifices performed during the Festival of Tabernacles where 70 bulls were sacrificed were seen by the ancient Rabbis (pre-Judaism) as being for the whole the world. The number 70 was considered to represent the nations, and the 70 bulls/oxen were seen as making a substutionary sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.

To say that there was no mercy, or grace in the Torah presents a major problem, because when Jesus was on the Road to Emmaus, he said that the Law spoke about Him. Jesus is full of mercy and grace, and therefore the Torah would not have been an accurate representation of Jesus had it not contained, and been a revelation of, grace and mercy.

The problem is I don't bow down ,worship, and idolize my Jewish brothers and sisters and their former religion/Judaism and that seems to bother you.

That is a snide, uncalled for, and completely rude thing to say, not to mention being untrue. No one here "idolizes" the Jews. You are just looking for any arrogant put down you can think of, because you are obviously not very mature. This debate can do without such ridiculous, ignorant remarks.

[Guest yod]

And I'm the one one with the knee-jerk reaction?? Okayyyyy.........

thanks for admitting it.

So you reconize that Sinai represents legalism.

There is no reason to even read the rest of your response.

It is bad enough that you won't consider what is being said with intellectual honesty but it's worse that you think you know something. You can't explain yourself with scripture because your thoughts don't exist within the pages of a bible...so you lob insults to cover for your woeful scriptural illiteracy

You refuse correction. I've tried to reason with you and only got insults for effort.

That is lazy, arrogant, ignorant, and rude.

What a shame.

[nanasimmons]

And I'm the one one with the knee-jerk reaction?? Okayyyyy.........

thanks for admitting it.

So you reconize that Sinai represents legalism.

So are you denying that in these passages Sinai represents THE GIVING OF LAW ?[/color]

There is no reason to even read the rest of your response.

It is bad enough that you won't consider what is being said with intellectual honesty but it's worse that you think you know something. You can't explain yourself with scripture because your thoughts don't exist within the pages of a bible...so you lob insults to cover for your woeful scriptural illiteracy

You refuse correction. I've tried to reason with you and only got insults for effort.

Paul had alot to say about attitudes and statements like this one..I'll leave that one alone.

What your offering is not correction, but deception...

That is lazy, arrogant, ignorant, and rude.

So your the one getting all the insults?? You are the one bragging of your all wise wisdom from "Messianic Jewish"(just another title/wall to separate the Body of Christ)(whatever they are,makes no difference to me:....)writers and all your many books, you said you you knew everything that every one was going to say ahead of time. I could spend hours writing chapter and verses that you already know and I would just be wasting my time because you really care what they are teaching anyways, your only interested in disproving them...That is obvious to any one on this side of the cross...

What a shame.

Yes it is!! You seem to be missing the bigger picture.... BY LAW, WHO WAS QUALIFIED TO BE"HIGH PRIEST"??

Jesus is Gods "Son" and Priest of the Most High God after the order of Melcezedek...not from the tribe of Levi.

Edited November 14, 2006 by nanasimmons

[nanasimmons]

So you reconize that Sinai represents legalism. The word Judiasm/Law better fits and you know.

No Sinai does not represent legalism, nor does the word "Judaism" fit. Judaism and the Torah are not necessarily synonomous.

Judaism did not exist until 72 A. D. No one here is advocating that anyone live according to Judaism. The problem is that you are trying to argue something that you are knowledgeable enough to address.

Secondly, Sinai is actually a picture of freedom and the giving of the Torah is connected with freedom from bondage. It your traditions that have taught you that the Torah is bondage, even though the Bible says no such thing. Legalism and Torah are not the same thing. Legalism is a perversion of Torah observance that seeks righteousness on a works-based platform. Following the Torah is not legalistic.

Furthermore, your use of Galatians is inappropriate here because Paul was not angry that anyone was keeping the Torah. Paul was angry that the Galatians had been decieved into thinking that they had to become physical Jews and convert to the Temple religion in Israel to be saved. Paul himself, was Torah observant, and it would have been hypocritical for him to condemn that in someone else.

The picture at Mt.Sinai as a whole was nothing but a glorious ministration of death and condemnation...The whole representation of God as an absolute Soverein and severe Judge. Nothing declared Him as a Father,gracious and meciful.

I guess somebody does not read their Bibile. Here is what was said at Mount Sinai:

And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

(Exodus 34:6-7)

Actually, what you don't realize is that what separated the Torah given at Sinai from other contemporaneous law codes (such as the Code of Hammurabi) of that day, was the fact that it does offer mercy. No other law code offers man a way to atone for his sin. No other law code of the day offered the concept of a substutionary sacrifice for both the individual and the nation. Forgiveness, Grace and Mercy are over the Torah. The Festivals given at Sinai, typify and foreshadow God's plan of redemption/salvation for the whole world.

Not only that, but the sacrifices performed during the Festival of Tabernacles where 70 bulls were sacrificed were seen by the ancient Rabbis (pre-Judaism) as being for the whole the world. The number 70 was considered to represent the nations, and the 70 bulls/oxen were seen as making a substutionary sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.

To say that there was no mercy, or grace in the Torah presents a major problem, because when Jesus was on the Road to Emmaus, he said that the Law spoke about Him. Jesus is full of mercy and grace, and therefore the Torah would not have been an accurate representation of Jesus had it not contained, and been a revelation of, grace and mercy.

The problem is I don't bow down ,worship, and idolize my Jewish brothers and sisters and their former religion/Judaism and that seems to bother you.

That is a snide, uncalled for, and completely rude thing to say, not to mention being untrue. No one here "idolizes" the Jews. You are just looking for any arrogant put down you can think of, because you are obviously not very mature. This debate can do without such ridiculous, ignorant remarks.

I am very thankful that God gave the Law to peserve the people til the seed should come....or else as the history of Idol worshipping and intermarriage in OT shows there wouldn't have been a promised nation for the promised Messiah to be born out of. Those were the two main sins that the Israelites were punished for over and over.

I am equally thankful for the Holy Spirit preserving us now or Christ wouldn't have any thing to come back for....

As for your calling me immuture, your the one who still needs to be under a schoolmaster.

Your too busy with endless geneologies and when the actual time was when Judaism became the name for people who adhere to Torah/Law, law keepers. I understand the reason of this blindness (Romans 11:25-32).

I also know that Hebews was a pain staking and patience attempt to get Jewish believers to recognize the better way of Jesus and His superiority over everyone/everything including the law, since He mediates a superior covenant. Obviously a failed attempt for some,but certainly not on the writer or Authors end.

It doesn't matter what/how I say things, you are always calling people studid,ignorant,ridiculous,immature. It a bully tactic

to upset people and make them rant and rave, causing them to look like they are the idiots for defending the truth......

Usually people cut others down to make themselves feel/look better....(as our mothers have always told us)