Q#1 - Draygomb's paradox

[child_of_iam]

[]

If it means what I think it means -- i.e., God does not follow logic -- there's nothing to say about it. Either you mean that God is impossible to understand, which makes you an agnostic theist and immune from the paradox, or you mean that God is above logic, which makes Him illogical and therefore nonexistent.

can the finite say to the infinate, "I can measure you"

[Leonard]

To those who don't know me, you can read my thread in Worthy Welcome.

I'll start with a paradox that has resisted for a long time and hasn't been broken yet - to my knowledge. It's called Draygomb's Paradox, from the nickname of the poster who thought it up. The guidelines do not allow me to link to the original forum.

I have thought about it a great deal but I could never figure out how to break it. So I thought maybe it's my bias and I should ask some believers to try break it; it's much more natural if I, an atheist, am the one who defends it. As things are now, it seems too easy because if it can't be broken then that paradox breaks all the religions that define their god as the Conscious First Cause, but I can only say it's valid

Oh when I write "god" -- not capitalized -- I mean any god of any religion. Don't take it as disrespect.

Ok let's go on. Here is the paradox, letter by letter as it was posted on "that forum". It isn't copyrighted.

Draygomb's paradox

Without Time God didn't have enough Time to decide to create Time.

God is defined as The Conscious First Cause -

The First Cause is That which caused Time.

Consciousness is that which lets one make a decision.

A Decision is the action of changing ones mind from undecided to decided.

Time is the measure of change.

Premises:

Something which is caused can't be required by that which causes it.

Conclusions:

Time is required for Change.

A Decision is a Change.

Decisions require Time.

Consciousness can't let one make a decision without Time.

Consciousness requires Time.

God is Conscious.

God requires Time.

God can't be the cause of Time if God requires Time.

God isn't the cause of Time.

God isn't The First Cause.

If God isn't The Conscious First Cause then God doesn't exist.

God doesn't exist.

Scope

Here Draygomb defines god in a way that is maybe a little unusual. We see all the time refutations based on incompatibilities between, say, omnipotence and omniscience so in a discussion we usually talk about God or other gods that have those properties. However Draygomb's paradox is about consciousness and time, so all he needs is the minimal definition of a god: the Conscious First Cause (CFC from now on). This guarantees that the paradox will work on, well, all the religions that count. It doesn't disprove the Greek religon or statements like "Pizza is god!!" () but that's it. In any case, it's obvious that any god that doesn't fit the definition given by Draygomb is not affected.

Additional info

Just in case you have missed it, there are a few assumptions hidden in plain sight here and there.

- God created ex nihilo

- Time had a beginning

They may or may not help you to break the paradox. They didn't help me.

Draygomb also posted this, which may or may not help you:

Common Rebuttals And Why They Fail

God Isn?t Conscious

Why Worship Something That Can?t Even Know You Exist

God Isn?t TFC

Why Worship A Fellow Caused Being

TFC Doesn?t Exist ie Time Has Always Existed

Infinite Causal Regression has been disproved

That leaves us with Finite Looping Time

Which Means All Of Time Has Always Existed

Thus Nothing Could Have Been Created

No Creation = No Creator

God Transcends Logic

Which Is Just A Fancy Way Of Saying God Is Illogical And Can?t Exist

Change Doesn?t Require Time

Change Does Require Time Go Look It Up

God Doesn?t Need To Change To Make The Conscious Decision To Create Time

If God Doesn?t Change When Making A Decision Then No Decision Was Really Made

Our Time Is An Offshoot Of God?s Time

Then The Real First Cause Of Our Time Is TFC Of God?s Time

God Transcends Time

If God is Always aware of every Moment of Time Then All Of Time Has Always Existed

Thus Nothing Could Have Been Created

No Creation = No Creator

I don't know why he capitalizes everything, I hate it.

Well, that's it. Let the chair throwing commence

His main premise is an a priori which is incorrect. For him infinity is a static concept. Once you are past this really rather silly concept, his whole scheme falls apart. I strongly suggest he read Kant's CRITIQUE OF PURE REASON.

[ayin jade]

The three dimensions of "space".

Oh ok. I believe there's more then one way to define time. Draygomb assumes time and space are impossible to separate so he can define time as a measure of change. Let's go on.

An assumption on D's part (and yours).

Science accepts that there are other dimensions.

Can you back that up? As far as it's just about science linking is allowed (I think).

From Science.com.

String theory holds that there are more dimensions than the ones we know.

At the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, held in Denver earlier this month, top physicists and cosmologists expressed optimism that extra dimensions would be soon be uncovered.

The various forms of string theory each require the existence of at least six extra spatial dimensions.

Good enough? There are plenty more references out there.

Prove to me a man can drive a car

parameters:

1) take away the means to start the car

2) take away the engine to the car

3) bind his hands and feet

4) drug him senseless

Therefore man cant drive a car.

[John917]

Logic holds that every cause has an effect, and every effect requires a cause. Nothing can just pop into existence, ex nihilo.

So Christians get around God's cause-lessness, as EricH has done:

The problem with the paradox is that God did not decide at a point in time to create. His purposes are eternal

...by saying that God is eternal. If he has always been there, he doesn't need a cause.

Not quite. But nice try.

The first cause argument for God does not start with God, but rather known premises that flow logically to the rational conclusion that requires a Casual Agent. (I believe the only rational conclusion as I'll explain in a minute)

Here is the argument, commonly referred to as the Kalam Cosmological Argument for the existence of God:

1. The universe coming into existence was the first event.

2. Every event is caused.

3. Therefore, the universe coming into existence was caused.

4. The first event was a physical event.

5. Every physical event is caused.

6. The first event was caused.

7. The cause of the first event was either a state of antecedent matter or an

immaterial agent acting for a reason.

8. There can be no antecedent matter before the creation of matter.

9. Therefore, the cause of the first event was an immaterial agent called God.

As theologian and apologist, R.C. Sproul points out there are only four options to consider regarding the question of origins:

1. That the universe is an illusion- it does not exist

2. That it is self created

3. That it is self-existent and eternal by itself

4. That is was created by Something self existent.

(Ref: His book, Not a Chance: The Myth of Chance in Modern Science and Cosmology)

Given these four options, can any of our atheist friends defend the first three logically? And if not, why do you think it is, that even with this intellectual obstacle removed that the Truth is still suppressed? In otherwords, even though the only clear logical, rational option is #4 that the truth of God the Creator is still denied? Romans 1:18-25 gives us (1) indication.....

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities

[sweetycakes]

Even some of the christians on this thread seem to be confused, so I'll just restate the fact that God is THE beginning. He has no cause. Nothing caused God. God IS the cause.

We are already told the answer....

"In the beginning, God...."

[Smalcald]

To those who don't know me, you can read my thread in Worthy Welcome.

I'll start with a paradox that has resisted for a long time and hasn't been broken yet - to my knowledge. It's called Draygomb's Paradox, from the nickname of the poster who thought it up. The guidelines do not allow me to link to the original forum.

I have thought about it a great deal but I could never figure out how to break it. So I thought maybe it's my bias and I should ask some believers to try break it; it's much more natural if I, an atheist, am the one who defends it. As things are now, it seems too easy because if it can't be broken then that paradox breaks all the religions that define their god as the Conscious First Cause, but I can only say it's valid

Oh when I write "god" -- not capitalized -- I mean any god of any religion. Don't take it as disrespect.

Ok let's go on. Here is the paradox, letter by letter as it was posted on "that forum". It isn't copyrighted.

Draygomb's paradox

Without Time God didn't have enough Time to decide to create Time.

God is defined as The Conscious First Cause -

The First Cause is That which caused Time.

Consciousness is that which lets one make a decision.

A Decision is the action of changing ones mind from undecided to decided.

Time is the measure of change.

Premises:

Something which is caused can't be required by that which causes it.

Conclusions:

Time is required for Change.

A Decision is a Change.

Decisions require Time.

Consciousness can't let one make a decision without Time.

Consciousness requires Time.

God is Conscious.

God requires Time.

God can't be the cause of Time if God requires Time.

God isn't the cause of Time.

God isn't The First Cause.

If God isn't The Conscious First Cause then God doesn't exist.

God doesn't exist.

Scope

Here Draygomb defines god in a way that is maybe a little unusual. We see all the time refutations based on incompatibilities between, say, omnipotence and omniscience so in a discussion we usually talk about God or other gods that have those properties. However Draygomb's paradox is about consciousness and time, so all he needs is the minimal definition of a god: the Conscious First Cause (CFC from now on). This guarantees that the paradox will work on, well, all the religions that count. It doesn't disprove the Greek religon or statements like "Pizza is god!!" () but that's it. In any case, it's obvious that any god that doesn't fit the definition given by Draygomb is not affected.

Additional info

Just in case you have missed it, there are a few assumptions hidden in plain sight here and there.

- God created ex nihilo

- Time had a beginning

- Time requires change, not the other way around - time is defined as a measure of change

They may or may not help you to break the paradox. They didn't help me.

Draygomb also posted this, which may or may not help you:

Common Rebuttals And Why They Fail

God Isn?t Conscious

Why Worship Something That Can?t Even Know You Exist

God Isn?t TFC

Why Worship A Fellow Caused Being

TFC Doesn?t Exist ie Time Has Always Existed

Infinite Causal Regression has been disproved

That leaves us with Finite Looping Time

Which Means All Of Time Has Always Existed

Thus Nothing Could Have Been Created

No Creation = No Creator

God Transcends Logic

Which Is Just A Fancy Way Of Saying God Is Illogical And Can?t Exist

Change Doesn?t Require Time

Change Does Require Time Go Look It Up

God Doesn?t Need To Change To Make The Conscious Decision To Create Time

If God Doesn?t Change When Making A Decision Then No Decision Was Really Made

Our Time Is An Offshoot Of God?s Time

Then The Real First Cause Of Our Time Is TFC Of God?s Time

God Transcends Time

If God is Always aware of every Moment of Time Then All Of Time Has Always Existed

Thus Nothing Could Have Been Created

No Creation = No Creator

I don't know why he capitalizes everything, I hate it.

Well, that's it. Let the chair throwing commence

Hi, I think it shows an elementary misunderstanding of time. We know from astrophysics that time is essentially relative; it is neither static nor fixed. We know that time can be actually running backward in some parts of the universe, that it is possible that time itself may not have existed or does not exist in other dimensions. We have multiple dimensions which exist at the same time, so in one dimension you may be 1000 years old in another you may not be born yet, in another existence does not yet exist. So relying on any sort of constraint of God which would depend on God being dependant on a time constraint, would not follow modern physics. God created time; time is just in a way just a human crutch to help us describe a complex existence.

Can't agree with you on that one, Smalcald - with the multi-dimensional universe thing.

That is not what I understand from the bible - a bizarre scenario where we are multi-faceted beings, each aspect being displayed in a different dimension or different universe. God is not the author of confusion.

The 'multiverse', as it is known, is merely an attempt by nonbelievers to explain away the unresolved questions we find from the observeable universe.

Hi, I think it shows an elementary misunderstanding of time. We know from astrophysics that time is essentially relative; it is neither static nor fixed. We know that time can be actually running backward in some parts of the universe, that it is possible that time itself may not have existed or does not exist in other dimensions. We have multiple dimensions which exist at the same time, so in one dimension you may be 1000 years old in another you may not be born yet, in another existence does not yet exist. So relying on any sort of constraint of God which would depend on God being dependant on a time constraint, would not follow modern physics. God created time; time is just in a way just a human crutch to help us describe a complex existence.

The part about dimensions etc would require some backing up, if you don't mind

Anyway, it isn't God that depends on time, but the act of making a decision. A decision is a change and change can only be defined in ways that require time. You could say that the paradox doesn't disprove God directly, it disproves the idea that the FC could have been conscious and then, from that, it follows that the FC isn't God.

That said, you described a universe where time behaves strangely. It doesn't follow, however, that the paradox is invalid because all the paradox relies on is the assumption that time had a beginning. So whatever the behaviour of time in our universe, if it came into being caused by something then the paradox applies and that "something" cannot be conscious.

It behaves strangely why? Most of what we currently understand about astrophysics is strange including time.

But how do you know that God makes decisions? Why would a decision need time for a creator being? Time is a relative construct; God could have made all decisions for all time all at once. God exists in the present, the past and the future all at the same time. I think we are tying to constrain God in a way that is not needed and does not even reflect modern science or what we know of it. "Before Abraham was; I AM."

[Ovedya]

Time is perceived by creation as being linear in nature. It moves in a linear fashion from one point to another. The length of time that it took for me to type the first letter in this posting, to the time that it took to type the last period, can be measured. In retrospect, if I examine this time I can document the first letter and I can document the last letter. Therefore, time is perceived by me to be linear in nature.

As a created being I am subject to the laws of creation. I depend on the natural laws in order to live. I am subject to gravity, to forces, and to time, just as the rest of creation. However, God is not subject to these things because He is the creator of them. He therefore must exist in a realm that is not subject to the same laws that I, as a creation, am subject to. Therefore, it needn't have taken "time" for God to conceive of, or create anything - even time!

It is only in our perception - which is governed by linear time - that we should assert that it took time for God to do anything. We have experienced that it takes a certain amount of time to do something, so therefore we judge that it must have taken God a certain amount of time to create something - even time itself. However God does not live by the laws which we ourselves are subjected to. Therefore, we are judging God by the natural laws which He Himself created. Since we are not God's ourselves, and we are limited in scope, in time, in perception, we cannot judge God by any means.

Furthermore, it appears that "decision" is the crucial term in the argument. As human beings we know that we can decide to do something or not, which requires us to change our mind from one thing in favor of another. But if we say that God has a "mind" and decides things in the same way that we do, we are not acknowledging the fact that He is God. Essentially we are saying that God is the same as we are. If God is the same as we are, than He is not God - He cannot be, by defnition "God." Whose to say that God must "decide" anything? If change requires a "decision" than how does science explain the changes in evolution?

Talk about dualities. Science asserts that a law exists, which is observable, that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted from one form into another. It also asserts that a law exists that all the matter in the universe exists, and has existed in quantity the same now as forever - at least as far back as the creation of the time which we now perceive. However it also acknowledges an anomalous phenomenon in the universe which cannot be seen, or detected by any conventional means, which not only destroys matter and energy, but which is believed to be responsible for the creation of all matter and energy in the known universe. And yet some assert that faith is irrational.

[Guest willing servant]

]

Nice question

There is a few presuppositions which this paradox makes which cannot be backed

1 Our father is bound by the constraints of time - Nowhere has God ever been shown to be bound by the normal constraints of time. Time is not a measure of change. Time is our measure of our change. To God time is a suit that we wear, not one he has to .

Time was mesured because we measured events, not god.

Consciousness is that which lets us make a decision.

A Decision is the action of changing one mind from undecided to decided.

Time is the measure of change for us .

God is eternal and not bound by human thought because he is God.

This post also assumes the fact that Humans thought is Logical and Gods is not. This is a assumption not factual presupposition. Anything that is based on such a large factual assumption must have flawed thought. As an assumption then it must be discarded because the author is human and has no basis on which to understand gods thought.

Therefore the premise

"However Draygomb's paradox is about consciousness and time, so all he needs is the minimal definition of a god" is incorrect.

Draygomb must need infinite knowlege of God and Time. Or his paradox falls down as soon as he opens his mouth.

It is also suggested that god was caused (despite the fact that he reiterates a number of time in his divinely inspired word he is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.) He is in a much better position to know this. But if caused, that means something caused him. What would cause God? A bigger god?. It sounds like dragomb needs to grasp temporal mechanics and the nature of all gods a little closer. More to the point our god because he is unique in theology.

Draygomb also has clearly adopted the stance that God does not exist. Even at the basics of philosophy something must exist in order to be considered. Especially when you examine its nature even as a resultant of two separate isolated events.

I myself do not think time and consciousness are necessarily conjoined.....

===========================================================

Thanks for listening

Praise God

Edited November 11, 2006 by willing servant

[Guest willing servant]

Just one more thought.

Just because I cant see Gummy Bears at the moment dosen't mean they dont exist.

JUst because I cant reason God doesnt mean to say that he dosen't exist.

======================================================

Jesus Christ .... your number one

[Questioner]

Nowhere the paradox implies that God is bound to our dimensions, indeed it states that the FC, conscious or not, has the ability to create time, therefore it is somehow outside of time and space as we know them. That means exactly what you say, that the FC is not bound to our dimensions. This is consistent both with creationism and with the various scientific theories about the origin of the universe, except the one about the universe having gone from a previous state to the one we know. However the paradox clearly shows that the FC cannot be conscious.

You are still stuck back a few posts ago where we discuss the fact that consciousness need not be temporal at all. You only think it needs to be temporal because your consciousness is temporal, and you aren't creative enough to consider a consciousness that is not temporal.

No assumptions are made about consciousness. Decision is, however, temporal because it is a change. Can you define change or decision in a way that doesn't rely on time?