Is Jesus who He said He is?

[undone]

Process,

Let's put this issue to bed.

Context, context, context

[Floatingaxe]

Well I recently quoted the Christian apologist C.S. Lewis admitting that Jesus did indeed give false prophecy. Doesn't look good does it?

You don't believe...so what do you care?

Don't believe what? That Jesus was a false prophet? I certainly believe that the Jesus of the Bible was a false prophet.

Well, that is so not true. Jesus is the Son of God and all His prophecies are on the money! Nothing false in the perfect one. The only falsehoods are the lies from the mouths of unbelievers.

[undone]

Greetings Undone,

I trust that Messiah is who He claims to be simply because He has supplied the means for me to trust.

I also note that you use the term

[John R Nolan]

Well I recently quoted the Christian apologist C.S. Lewis admitting that Jesus did indeed give false prophecy. Doesn't look good does it?

You don't believe...so what do you care?

Don't believe what? That Jesus was a false prophet? I certainly believe that the Jesus of the Bible was a false prophet.

Well, that is so not true. Jesus is the Son of God and all His prophecies are on the money! Nothing false in the perfect one. The only falsehoods are the lies from the mouths of unbelievers.

Who did Jesus say He was?

He said He was the Way, the Truth, the Light, that He and His Father were One, the Good Shepherd, the Messiah, and as He said it, any Christian will surely believe it

Who did man say He is is a totally different matter, as man has consistently failed to identify GOD and His ongoing revelation of HImself since the Garden of Eden

If you don't believe He is the fulfillment of GOD'S Word that's fine, you are free to choose what ever you wish to believe, but, the works did testify that the works done through Him were beyond the capabilities of man

As for prophecy, how many prophecies did He make and how many of them were fulfilled?

That is the vindication required, the 100% accuracy of prophetic manifestation

It is wise to remember that in the last days, NOW, many will come in His name, casting out demons, doing mighty works, etc., and they WILL deceive ALL but the very elect of Mat.24:24

God sends a spirit of delusion upon thepeople so they WILL BELIEVE THE LIE 2 Thes.2:11

Which lie?

The one Lucifer told Eve in the beginning, 'Trust me, follow my interpretation and you willl never die"(paraphrased)

We can quickly detect this prophecy was incorrect and, as you check the prophecies Jesus gave, check out if He made any errors

That's how we know Who He IS

[TheProcess]

Okay, We have one vote for Jesus being a false prophet based on a C.S. Lewis quote that could or could not be taken in context.

Next...

The main point I was making, is that your argument about the resurrection is unbiblical. We aren't supposed to follow someone merely because they can provide a "sign". Could you respond to this?

[Floatingaxe]

Well, we ARE supposed to follow Jesus Christ. He gave us plenty of signs in order that we know who He is...thousands of years before He came, when He came, and up to 2007 years since He came! What is unbiblical about His resurrection? He promised it. He did it. We believe who He is because of it.

[TheProcess]

Okay, We have one vote for Jesus being a false prophet based on a C.S. Lewis quote that could or could not be taken in context.

Next...

C.S. Lewis was talking about Matthew 24:34 and parallel verses.

From the article "Matthew 24:34 -- What The Scholars Say"

(This is included on a Preterist site, which includes some quotes from partial Preterist and some who see the events as future I think, for anyone interested.)

http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyBible...thew_24-34.html

Sixteen Bible Commentaries: genea.

(1) ...verse 34 solemnly promises that Jesus will return while some of his contemporaries are still alive (a reprise of 16:28).... The gospel testimony provides strong support for this view: Jesus did not know all things.

(2) (This generation) can only with the greatest of difficulty be made to mean anything other than the generation living when Jesus spoke.

(3) "This generation" clearly designates the contemporaries of Jesus.

(4) The statement in verse 34 is a difficult one. If generation is to be taken in this strict sense, then "all these things" must be limited to the events culminating in A.D. 70.... The majority of the best scholars today insist that generation be taken in its strictest sense.

(5) Jesus was quite certain that they would happen within the then living generation.

(6) [Matthew] probably believed, however, that the end could come before all of Jesus' hearers had died.

(7) Further, he [Jesus] insists that his words are infallible, and that they are more certain than the material universe itself....

(8) This verse recalls 16.28, and affirms that some of the disciples would live to see the Parousia. This would presuppose a relatively early date for the event.... Was Jesus in error in his prediction of the nearness of the end?

(9) In the Old Testament a generation was reckoned as forty years. This is the natural way to take verse 34.... He plainly stated in verse 34 that those events would take place in that generation.... One may, of course, accuse Jesus of hopeless confusion.... It is impossible to escape the conclusion that Jesus, as Man, expected the end within the lifetime of his contemporaries.

(10) The hard fact still remains that if Jesus spoke the sayings of St. Mark xiii and St. Matthew xxiv... he misjudged the extent of his own knowledge and uttered a definite prediction which was not fulfilled.

(11) The Synoptists fell into the contradiction... of making Jesus declare at one moment that He did not know the time of the glorious Advent, and at another that it would infallibly happen within that generation.

(12) The affirmation that "all these things" will happen in this generation is clear, and there is no reason to alter the meaning of the word generation from its usual sense except a fear that the Scriptures may be in error if it is not so altered.

(13) Indeed, the fulfillment will take place before this present generation has passed away.

(14) Did Jesus expect the end within the lifetime of those who heard him speak? It seems quite certain that the early church so understood him.

(15) Matthew made it clear that some of the first disciples would live to see the Parousia.

(16) ... v. 34; there are those now alive, who shall see Jerusalem destroyed.

Nine Christian Scholars & Authors: genea & Matthew 24:34.

(1) Rev. Chuck Smith: As a rule, a generation in the Bible lasts 40 years.

(2) Dr. David Friedrich Strauss: ...the word genea... was put to the torture....

(3) George Murry: If the saying relates to the parousia, it sets the end time within the bounds of the first generation church. The phrase "this generation" should cause no difficulty for interpreters... It always signifies his [Jesus'] contemporaries.

(4) Dr. Albert Schweitzer: And He [Jesus] was to come, moreover, within the lifetime of the generation to which He had proclaimed the nearness of the Kingdom of God.

(5) Gary DeMar: No future generation of Jews is meant here.

(6) Rev. Stuart Russell: Next, our Lord sums up with an affirmation calculated to remove every vestige of doubt or uncertainty, "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." One would reasonably suppose that after a note of time so clear and express there could not be room for controversy. Our Lord Himself has settled the question. Ninety-nine persons in every hundred would undoubtedly understand His words as meaning that the predicted catastrophe would fall within the lifetime of the existing generation. Not that all would live to witness it, but that most or many would. There can be no question that this would be the interpretation which the disciples would place upon the words.... His coming... would come to pass before the existing generation had wholly passed away, and within the limits of their own lifetime.

(7) Edward Gibbon: [Members of the primitive church] were obliged to expect the second and glorious coming of the Son of Man in the clouds before that generation was totally extinguished which had beheld his humble condition upon the earth.

(8) Rev. Milton Terry: The words immediately preceding them show the absurdity of applying them to another generation than that of the apostles: "When ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors." The teaching of Jesus was emphatic beyond all rational question that that generation should not pass away before all those things of which they inquired should be fulfilled.

(9) Dr. William Lane Craig: Two generations past the time of Jesus lands you in the 2nd Century

Thirteen Scholars: The "Race" Argument.

(1) Douglas Hare: Some have argued, for example, that "this generation" refers not to Jesus' contemporaries but to the Jewish nation or to the church. The linguistic evidence in favor of such proposals is not impressive.

(2) Alan Hugh M'Neile: "This generation" cannot mean the Jews as a people, believers in Christ, or the future generation that will experience these things. It must be the particular generation of Jews to whom, or of whom, the words were spoken.... It is impossible to escape the conclusion that Jesus, as Man, expected the End within the lifetime of His contemporaries.

(3) Clifton Allen: The meaning of "this generation" is much disputed. Efforts like those of Jerome, to make it mean the Jewish race, or of Origen and Chrysostom, to refer it to all Christians, are arbitrary, and are to be rejected. "This generation" refers to the contemporaries of Jesus.

(4) Heinrich Meyer: Ver. 34. Declaration to the effect that all this is to take place before the generation then living should pass away. (It is) well-nigh absurd (the) manner in which it has been attempted to force into the word genea such meaning as: The Creation, The Human Race, The Jewish Nation, The Class of Men Consisting of My Believers, The Generation of the Elect Now in Question, The Future Generation Which is to Witness Those Events... (The Second Coming) is to occur during the lifetime of the generation then existing.

(5) R.T. France: (Genea) has been taken to mean The Jewish Race, or Unbelieving Judaism. It is unlikely that such an improbable meaning for the noun would have been suggested at all without the constraint of apologetic embarrassment...! Jesus was wrong.

(6) Floyd Filson: The end... will come within a generation. Attempts to translate genea as: Human Race, Jewish Race are misguided; the word refers to the generation living when Jesus spoke.

(7) P. Davids, F.F. Bruce, M. Brauch: This has been regarded as a hard saying.... Plainly the idea that the human race is meant cannot be entertained; every description of (the end of the world) implies that human beings will be around to witness it.... Nor is there much more to be said for the idea the Jewish race is meant; there is no hint anywhere in the New Testament that the Jewish race will cease to exist before the end of the world. In any case, what point would there be in such a vague prediction? It would be as much as to say, "At some time in the indefinite future all these things will take place." Jesus' hearers could have understood him to mean only that "all these things" would take place within their generation.... The phrase always means the generation now living.

(8) Bible Commentary: ...seems to require us here to translate the word genea as meaning "generation," not, as it is sometimes rendered, race or people. (Generation) is the usual meaning.

(9) Rev. Patrick Fairbairn: It has been maintained by some that... our Lord identified generation with the Jewish race.... But that is a very forced explanation; and not a single example can be produced of an entirely similar use of the word. Whatever difficulties may hang around the interpretation of that part of Christ's discourse, it is impossible to understand by "the generation that was not to pass away" anything but the existing race of men living at the time when the word was spoken.

(10) Bruce Chilton: Some have sought to get around the force of (Mt. 24:34) by saying that the word generation here really means race, and that Jesus was simply saying that the Jewish race would not die out until all these things took place. Is that true? I challenge you: Get out your concordance and look up every New Testament occurrence of the word generation, and see if it ever means "race" in any other context.... Not one of these references is speaking of the entire Jewish race over thousands of years; all use the word in its normal sense of the sum total of those living at the same time. It always refers to contemporaries. In fact, those who say it means "race" tend to acknowledge this fact, but explain that the word suddenly changes its meaning when Jesus uses it in Matthew 24! We can smile at such a transparent error ....

(11) Dr. Albert Schweitzer: These words (Mt. 24:34) must be strained into meaning, not that generation, but the Jewish people. Thus by exegetical art they are saved forever, for the Jewish race will never die out.

(12) Rev. Milton Terry: The various meanings which, under the pressure of a dogmatic (crisis), have been put upon the phrase "this generation" must appear in the highest degree absurd to an unbiased critic. It has been explained (away) as meaning: The Human Race [Jerome], The Jewish Race [Dorner], The Race of Christian Believers [Chrysostom].

(13) Rev. Stuart Russell: It has been contended by many that in (Mt 24:34) the word genea should be rendered "race" or "nation...." But we think... without any shadow of doubt that the expression "this generation" so often employed by our Lord, always refers solely and exclusively to His contemporaries, the Jewish people of His own period.

References for 16 Bible Commentaries: genea.

1) Matthew [Hare], 2) The Expositor's Bible Commentary, 3) Commentary on the Gospel of Mark [Wm Lane], 4) The Wesleyan Bible Commentary [Earle], 5) The Expositor's Greek Testament [bruce], 6) The Interpreter's Bible, 7) The Gospel of Matthew [Robinson], 8) New Century Bible: The Gospel of Matthew, 9) Word Pictures in the New Testament [A.T. Robinson], 10) Primitive Christian Eschatology [Dewick], 11) The Eschatology of Jesus [Muirhead], 12) The Jerome Biblical Commentary, 13) The Interpreter's Bible [vol. 7], 14), The Interpreter's Bible [vol. 8], 15) Peake's Commentary, 16) The NIV Matthew Henry Commentary.

References for Nine Christian Scholars & Authors: genea & Matthew 24:34.

1) Future Survival, Chuck Smith, The Word for Today, Costa Mesa, CA 1978, page 17

2) The Life of Jesus Critically Examined, Dr. David Friedrich Strauss, Sigler Press, Ramsey, NJ 1994, page 587

3) Jesus and The Last Days, George Murray, Hendrickson Pub., Peabody, Mass. 1993, pages 443-444

4) The Quest of the Historical Jesus, Dr. Albert Schweitzer, Macmillian, NY, 1968, page 240

5) Last Days Madness, Gary DeMar, American Vision Inc., Atlanta, GA 1994, page 114

6) The Parousia, Stuart Russell, T. Fisher Unwin Pub., London, 1887, page 84

7) The Decline & Fall of the Roman Empire, Edward Gibbon, Penguin Books, NY 1985, page 276

8) Apocalypse of The Gospels, Milton Terry, (1819), chapter 18 reprinted and its pages renumbered in 1992 by John Bray, PO Box 90129, Lakeland, FL 33804, pages 34 & 38

9) Dr. William Lane Craig lecture attended by Mark Smith, given at Hope Chapel, Hermosa Beach, CA, 1-11-99, statement @ 8:33 PM

References for 13 Scholars: The "Race" Argument.

1) Matthew, Douglas Hare, John Knox Press, Louisville, Kentucky, 1993, p. 281

2) The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, Alan Hugh M'Neile, Macmillan & Co., London 1949, p. 354-355

3) The Broadman Bible Commentary, Vol. 8, Clifton Allen, ed., Broadman Press, Nashville, TN 1969, p. 221

4) Critical and Exegetical Hand-Book To The Gospel of Matthew, Heinrich Meyer (1883), Alpha Pub., Winona Lake, IN 1980, p. 426

5) The Gospel According to Matthew, R.T. France, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, MI, 1985, p. 346

6) A Commentary on The Gospel According to St. Matthew, Floyd Filson, Adam & Charles Black Pub., London, 1960, p. 257

7) Hard Sayings of the Bible, W. Kaiser, P. Davids, F.F. Bruce, M. Brauch, InterVarsity Press, Downers Grove, Ill, 1996, pp. 445-448

8) Bible Commentary, Vol. 1, Charles Scribner's Sons, NY 1901, p. 144

9) The Imperial Bible Dictionary, Vol. II, Rev. Patrick Fairbairn, Blackie & Son, London, 1885, p. 352

10) The Great Tribulation, David Chilton, Dominion Press, Ft. Worth, TX 1987, p. 3

11) The Quest of the Historical Jesus, Dr. Albert Schweitzer, Macmillian, NY, 1968, p. 22

12) Apocalypse of The Gospels, Milton Terry (1819), chapter 18 reprinted and its pages renumbered in 1992 by John Bray, PO Box 90129, Lakeland, FL 33804, p. 34

13) The Parousia, J. Stuart Russell, T. Fisher Unwin Pub., London, 1887, p. 85

Edited November 13, 2006 by TheProcess

[Floatingaxe]

Holy long quote, Batman~!

[TheProcess]

I will respond on Matthew 16:27-28 when I have time

[cjrose]

The bottom line is, until you walk in the Light, one will never know Jesus.

To walk in the Light requires trust. To gain trust, one has to search, once one searches with an honest heart, one will find Jesus.

"He stands at the door and knocks, he that opens the door will come into me and I into him"

The bottom line is, if you walk in darkness, Jesus can be anything to anyone.

If you completely surrender, believe, give over control, Jesus is life.

Jesus is who He says He is.