undone Posted December 3, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 45 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 819 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/01/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 3, 2006 You did? What was it? It won't kill you to answer this again (if you ever did to begin with). I can tell you what Judaism thinks on this issue. Obviously you wouldn't agree with that. If you think that you know Biblical criteria that show Jesus to be the Messiah then please explain it to us, rather than wasting time questioning me about it. I'd prefer understanding where you are coming from in order to present my responses accordingly. If it is solely based on what this particular sect of Jews is saying, so be it. Don't be afraid to let us know. Ultimately, I prefer avoiding answers from you such as "I don't think so" when clearly, if you look at the text based on it's face value, you could certainly extract a meaning and a context from it that is CLEARLY plausible. You shouldn't be afraid to admit that even if it doesn't help your argument. It helps you build credibility. Otherwise, I am left to assume I am debating with someone totally unreasonable. I don't think there is anything wrong with withdrawing from debate with an unreasonable opponent. You can call me what you like, it doesn't matter. However if you want to continue in a debate with me, you have to tell me what you believe to be true regarding the Messiah and why. Also, you asked that we agree to sticking to a literal translation of scripture and up front, I agreed that this is best. However, there is clearly symbolism and figurative speech used in the old and new testament. A literal translation would not benefit anyone in these cases. There are obviously varying translations of this symbolism from person to person. I rely on fundamental orthodoxy for my spiritual education. If you don't, or you reject that, we may well be wasting time debating each other. This may be a whole other topic for debate - Fundamentalism vs...?...whatever orthodoxy "TP" subscribes to. So, it truly is your choice. I have little to gain or lose. It really is about a pleasurable journey to understanding what we believe. If it's not, its not worth my time. I'm a dad, a husband, a student, and much more. If it's not fun, I have too many other things to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billie Posted December 3, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 51 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,849 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/17/1979 Share Posted December 3, 2006 You're a great sport, Undone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheProcess Posted December 3, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 487 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/27/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2006 I'd prefer understanding where you are coming from in order to present my responses accordingly. If it is solely based on what this particular sect of Jews is saying, so be it. Don't be afraid to let us know. Look on counter-missionary sites, and you will find how Judaism views the Messiah. I would copy/paste some material but I am not allowed to do so. There is no point writing something on this issue when anyone can easily find it. Ultimately, I prefer avoiding answers from you such as "I don't think so" when clearly, if you look at the text based on it's face value, you could certainly extract a meaning and a context from it that is CLEARLY plausible. You shouldn't be afraid to admit that even if it doesn't help your argument. It helps you build credibility. Otherwise, I am left to assume I am debating with someone totally unreasonable. This is a question-begging point. You haven't given any argument for why your interpretation is plausible. You have merely asserted it. Would I "build my credibility" by conceding that your interpretation is plausible? No, I would make myself look like an idiot. I have seen the fig tree = Israel thing before -- it is very silly. This is NOT the plain meaning of the text at all, and no one could sensibly think so. I don't think there is anything wrong with withdrawing from debate with an unreasonable opponent. I think the problem is more that you can't defend your position. However if you want to continue in a debate with me, you have to tell me what you believe to be true regarding the Messiah and why. I have told you before: you ran away from the debate, and I couldn't care less whether or not you want to come back. I am not going to waste time writing something when you could find the info very easily by doing a search. And if you want to debate with me, you would have to agree to respond to points made. Otherwise, I am wasting my time with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua-777 Posted December 3, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 410 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,102 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 522 Days Won: 6 Joined: 10/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/07/1984 Share Posted December 3, 2006 process, now what do you believe reguarding isaiah 53? or reguarding the witness crying in the wilderness, comming in the spirit and power of elijah in Isaiah aswell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undone Posted December 4, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 45 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 819 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/01/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 4, 2006 Look on counter-missionary sites, and you will find how Judaism views the Messiah. I would copy/paste some material but I am not allowed to do so. There is no point writing something on this issue when anyone can easily find it. So you have no clue what the Old Testament says with regards to the coming Messiah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undone Posted December 4, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 45 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 819 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/01/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 4, 2006 This is NOT the plain meaning of the text at all, and no one could sensibly think so. Is it mearly the fig tree comparison you have a problem with? BTW - This is not my own interpretation. I've heard it taught on other occasions (Not just the fig tree example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheProcess Posted December 4, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 487 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/27/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2006 process, now what do you believe reguarding isaiah 53? or reguarding the witness crying in the wilderness, comming in the spirit and power of elijah in Isaiah aswell? With regard to Isaiah 53, I believe that there are good reasons to think that it isn't talking about Jesus. I did ask you whether you could respond to the common objections that are given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheProcess Posted December 4, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 487 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/27/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2006 Look on counter-missionary sites, and you will find how Judaism views the Messiah. I would copy/paste some material but I am not allowed to do so. There is no point writing something on this issue when anyone can easily find it. So you have no clue what the Old Testament says with regards to the coming Messiah. Do you have much of a clue about it? Are we going to get an argument out of you that Biblical criteria support Jesus as the Messiah? Are you able to provide some substantial argument on this point? I am thinking you are probably just wasting time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheProcess Posted December 4, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 487 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/27/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2006 Is it mearly the fig tree comparison you have a problem with? BTW - This is not my own interpretation. I've heard it taught on other occasions (Not just the fig tree example). You mean you didn't personally invent the interpretation? I think we know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undone Posted December 5, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 45 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 819 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/01/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 5, 2006 Look on counter-missionary sites, and you will find how Judaism views the Messiah. I would copy/paste some material but I am not allowed to do so. There is no point writing something on this issue when anyone can easily find it. So you have no clue what the Old Testament says with regards to the coming Messiah. Do you have much of a clue about it? Are we going to get an argument out of you that Biblical criteria support Jesus as the Messiah? Are you able to provide some substantial argument on this point? I am thinking you are probably just wasting time. Yes I do. Fullfilled OT prophecy. Remarkable fullfillment in detail and incredible mathematical probability. Am I? Anyone can sit back at take pot-shots at someone's statements. The explanations of this particular topic fill books. To simply summarize them in a few paragraphs, leaves them open to be easily misunderstood. You've seen many examples posted on this thread. Most do not stray from common orthodoxy. Your conspiracy theories are amusing at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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