Marriage

[Candi770]

true: 86% of child molesters identified themselves as homosexual or bisexual.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39a85d645363.htm

Can I just point out that paedophilia is a disease? The fact that 86% of a certain number of child sex offenders are attracted to the same sex in one way or another does not mean that, similarly, 86% of a certain number of homosexuals are attracted to children. The disease of paedophilia comes out in many ways, and all this statistic reflects is the variety present in this particular type of problem - by which I mean, paedophilia and not homosexualty, which is between consenting adults.

Yeah, some believe that, because they believe their is no cure= most believe it to be of Demonic origin. And demons can be cast out.

Would this be from the same medieval school of medicine which thought epilespy was caused by demons? A disease is a disease is a disease. Start thinking that demons cause one illness, next thing you know they're the reason you've got a pimple or a stomach-ache. And for the record, "most" people do NOT believe that demons cause illness. This belief is pretty much the province of American evangelicals, not the rest of the world or even most Christians.

So does a paedophil need an excuse to continue in sin or is he sold out to that which is "god" in his life. I assure you, he doesn't serve the God that I do. He serves the devil and the demonic presence that holds him in bondage.

I was born that way or I have a disease, is just an excuse to stay under the influence of sin-to say- I can't help myself.

Some things, such as a disease, just happen like a rose gets a disease, your right. But when someone willingly yields their soul to sin; then they are a slave to that which they serve; satan. They have willingly given themselves over to the devil and he can do as he may in their life. ANd you better believe if they have a desire to change and seek Christ- Satan will fight to keep them captive.

Most Christians do believe in the demonic as well as the angelic spiritual world.

The Lord showed me in a dream that a sin of mine at one time was as if, I opened a door and the devil grabed my wrist- I jerked my arm back and slammed the door realizing that, I had to say no to that in my life and submit to God.

[secondeve]

Would this be from the same medieval school of medicine which thought epilespy was caused by demons? A disease is a disease is a disease. Start thinking that demons cause one illness, next thing you know they're the reason you've got a pimple or a stomach-ache. And for the record, "most" people do NOT believe that demons cause illness. This belief is pretty much the province of American evangelicals, not the rest of the world or even most Christians.

Thats ironic because nearly half of the healings in the New Testament involve first casting out a demon, and they are specificly associated with illnesses in both the New Testament and in the Old Testament. That does not mean that every illness is of direct demonic influence, but it does mean evil spirits can and do make people sick in some circumstances.

No, it's only ironic if I believed that demons existed. Which I quite categorically don't. Put another way - and bearing in mind that I don't believe Jesus was divine - he was misdiagnosing illnesses, whose causes were at that time unknown, in the manner typical of his society, i.e. it was a demon/evil spirit.

So does a paedophil need an excuse to continue in sin or is he sold out to that which is "god" in his life. I assure you, he doesn't serve the God that I do. He serves the devil and the demonic presence that holds him in bondage.

Candi, I'm not trying to create an excuse for an offender. Whatever our desires, we can choose to fight them, or put ourselves forwards to be helped by others in fighting them. I'm simply saying that because of what they are and what causes them, this isn't as easy as going through an exorcism and being 'cured.' Frankly, if your solution to paedophiles was to put them in the hands of a group of Evangelicals, "remove" their demons and then send them back out into the community, I'd run a mile in the opposite direction.

I was born that way or I have a disease, is just an excuse to stay under the influence of sin-to say- I can't help myself.

Homosexuality, if the Bible didn't say it was evil, would not appear as evil on its own. It hurts nobody when between two consenting adults. Paedophilia, on the other hand, can only ever be rape or molestation, and is therefore evidently a harmful behaviour. And so bearing in mind that I don't believe in the Bible - and also bearing in mind that paedophilia is a disease, whereas homosexuality isn't - it's my belief that there's everything wrong with paedophilia and nothing wrong with homosexuality.

Some things, such as a disease, just happen like a rose gets a disease, your right. But when someone willingly yields their soul to sin; then they are a slave to that which they serve; satan. They have willingly given themselves over to the devil and he can do as he may in their life. ANd you better believe if they have a desire to change and seek Christ- Satan will fight to keep them captive.

So explain to me how 'surrendering' to epilepsy is the result of embracing sin.

Most Christians do believe in the demonic as well as the angelic spiritual world.

And you're backing this up with which data? I'm only going on my own experiences, but here in Australia, if you went as a door to door Christian telling folk that gayness or epilepsy was caused by demons, you'd pretty much get a raised eyebrow and an incredulous stare even from most Christians. In my book, this is an active Evangelical belief, not a base Christian one.

Edited December 5, 2006 by secondeve

[billie]

Well, the problem Christians encounter when they don't wish to believe in the demonic is that they deny what it says in their Bible. Believing the Bible would seem like a pretty base Christian charecteristic to me.

[Guest K.R.E.B.S]

Would this be from the same medieval school of medicine which thought epilespy was caused by demons? A disease is a disease is a disease. Start thinking that demons cause one illness, next thing you know they're the reason you've got a pimple or a stomach-ache. And for the record, "most" people do NOT believe that demons cause illness. This belief is pretty much the province of American evangelicals, not the rest of the world or even most Christians.

Read "Spirit of the Rain Forest" by Mark Andrew Ritchie. I think the "world" you speak of is a lot less than you think.

I'm very sensitive to this subject you bring up, Secondeve. I have many close friends who are living the homosexual lifestyle and I am very good friends with one of the young men from our youth group who is struggling with the homosexual lifestyle. I even accompanied him to an Exodus Freedom Conference this past summer in Indiana, where young men and women struggling with the homosexual lifestyle are trying to find freedom. I have a new understanding of the struggles they have. I love them just as I would any sinner like myself.

But honestly, there really is no such thing as a "homosexual" in my opinion. To me, to say you're a homosexual means you're saying you're "addicted to sex with the same gender." What makes a "homosexual" other than the act of engaging in sex outside of the marriage?

I think this is why so many oppose it. It's sex outside of marriage. It's wrong whether it's between a man and a woman or any other form. I find it ironic nobody brings this up more. God's law tells us sex is reserved between a married couple. If 2 men or women have never been allowed to marry, how can people use the bible to justify it???

Quick thoughts, but I have to get to bed. My wife is calling...

Joe

[secondeve]

Well, the problem Christians encounter when they don't wish to believe in the demonic is that they deny what it says in their Bible. Believing the Bible would seem like a pretty base Christian charecteristic to me.

Where in the Bible does it state specifically that all or even certain illnesses are caused by demons? Where does it say that homosexuality is caused by demons? To the best of my knowledge, it doesn't. So when I say that this isn't something which, in my experience, most Christians believe, it's because outside of Worthy, I've never met a single Christian who would claim that they were sick because a demon was plaguing them, or that the devil was waging a war and so they had a miscellaneous cold. With all the medical and scientific knowledge we now have of illness and the human body, I cannot for the life of me fathom why anyone, for example, would think that epilepsy was caused by demons. That's all I was saying.

As for what Candi was saying about homosexuality and paedophilia? I don't honestly believe this is an issue that most Christians can look at objectively. This might sound a bit odd, but hear me out. If homosexuality was innate, or if people could be born with a mental disease making them predisposed to paedophilia - and if, at the same time, God creates all people in the womb - then the implication is that God is making people who are anathema to him, or at least making it very, very difficult for them to ever be anything else. And that's not something Christians, in my experience, can believe. Which means that whenever someone comes out with any kind of evidence to show that homosexuality might be innate, none of them can even entertain the idea that it might be true; they can't be objective. Whereas for those of us who have no problem with homosexuality, it doesn't matter a jot whether it's innate or not, because it isn't harmful or wrong, so I would argue there's more room, potentially, for objectivity in that belief.

Which is a bit of a side note, like this whole conversation. Guess the OP isn't really going to get addressed, huh.

Edited December 5, 2006 by secondeve

[secondeve]

I'm very sensitive to this subject you bring up, Secondeve. I have many close friends who are living the homosexual lifestyle and I am very good friends with one of the young men from our youth group who is struggling with the homosexual lifestyle. I even accompanied him to an Exodus Freedom Conference this past summer in Indiana, where young men and women struggling with the homosexual lifestyle are trying to find freedom. I have a new understanding of the struggles they have. I love them just as I would any sinner like myself.

But honestly, there really is no such thing as a "homosexual" in my opinion. To me, to say you're a homosexual means you're saying you're "addicted to sex with the same gender." What makes a "homosexual" other than the act of engaging in sex outside of the marriage?

I think this is why so many oppose it. It's sex outside of marriage. It's wrong whether it's between a man and a woman or any other form. I find it ironic nobody brings this up more. God's law tells us sex is reserved between a married couple. If 2 men or women have never been allowed to marry, how can people use the bible to justify it???

Well, first off, I'd dispute your definition. How can attraction to any gender imply addiction to sex? That isn't a valid idea of homosexuality; all the word means is men who are attracted, either physically or emotionally, to other men, to the exclusion of feeling similar feelings for women.

As for sex outside of marraige, to me, this isn't an issue, because as a non-Christian, I see nothing inherently important in the idea of extra-marital sex, particularly in a day and age where contraception is readily available to all. Originally, yes, I can see why the idea might've appealed - so women, who weren't allowed or able to earn money to support themselves, might not end up with bastard children. That's just practical. But today? Nope.

[Giaour]

Speaking for one who actually HAS epilepsy, please tread lightly.

[secondeve]

Speaking for one who actually HAS epilepsy, please tread lightly.

Will do.

[billie]

Places where the Bible says illnesses are caused by demons:

Matt 9:32 "While they were going out, a man who was demon-possessed and could not talk was brought to Jesus. 33And when the demon was driven out, the man who had been mute spoke. The crowd was amazed and said, "Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel."

Here we see muteness caused by demonic possession.

Matt 12:22 "Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see."

Blindness and muteness.

Luke 11:14 "Jesus was driving out a demon that was mute. When the demon left, the man who had been mute spoke, and the crowd was amazed."

Muteness again.

Matt 17:14 "When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15"Lord, have mercy on my son," he said. "He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him."

17"O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." 18Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment."

Seizures.

Mark 9:17 A man in the crowd answered, "Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. 18Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not."

19"O unbelieving generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me."

20So they brought him. When the spirit saw Jesus, it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion. He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth.

21Jesus asked the boy's father, "How long has he been like this?"

"From childhood," he answered. 22"It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us."

23" 'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes."

24Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"

25When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the evil[a] spirit. "You deaf and mute spirit," he said, "I command you, come out of him and never enter him again."

26The spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently and came out. The boy looked so much like a corpse that many said, "He's dead." 27But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him to his feet, and he stood up.

Muteness, seizures, convulsions, deafness.

Luke 9:37 The next day, when they came down from the mountain, a large crowd met him. 38A man in the crowd called out, "Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, for he is my only child. 39A spirit seizes him and he suddenly screams; it throws him into convulsions so that he foams at the mouth. It scarcely ever leaves him and is destroying him. 40I begged your disciples to drive it out, but they could not."

41"O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you and put up with you? Bring your son here."

42Even while the boy was coming, the demon threw him to the ground in a convulsion. But Jesus rebuked the evil[a] spirit, healed the boy and gave him back to his father.

Seizures, convulsions, foaming at the mouth.

Acts 19:12 so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.

I included this verse because I just found the wording interesting. It makes it look like those sick had evil spirits. I could have this one wrong, though.

Acts 19:16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

Here a man possessed by a demon is beating people!

[billie]

Why don't you start one, RH?