Does God Believe in Atheism?

[Fovezer]

Uh but you did!:

"You are right, you can't prove a negative. Atheism is not a negative. I don't say "there is no god." I say "I lack the belief in a god." Big difference. The first one is a positive statement, the second one is neither. Your point is null. Saying definitaly there is or isn't a god is very foolish and rather arrogant.

That is why the burden of proof lies on the affirmative, or the one that claims there is/isn't a god."

Note the bolded portions. I said that the burden of proof lies with the affirmative, wether they say god for sure does or doesn't exist. I never asked you to prove god.

Those abstract statements don't explain what's your rationale for judging God's existence -or lack of-.

That wasn't my rationale. I was just pointing it out.

This is no rebuttal to my point. My point is that prior to God's revelation to a specific individual, there was no belief in "Yahweh" nor any knowledge about his biblical characteristics so indeed there was a beginning to those specific beliefs whereas your answer explains an "infinite chain" of teachings.

Remember that "infinite chains" prove nothing .

What? I agree with the first part of the statement. No belief until it is taught.

What do you mean by this?.

I mean atheism isn't an abstract concept. It is more or less the default position. Christianity is, though, because it has to be taught.

[mobile21]

We are not asking you show us God, merely that you show us proof of his existence. For me, personally, getting him to align the stars of the Milky Way to spell out the words "Yes, I exist, and Jesus is my son and all that, now start believing in me, punk" would do just fine. Though I wouldn't be 100% certain of his existence (it could be those powerful alien pranksters again), I would believe that the probability of him existing would now be reasonable.

Let's suppose He performed that miracle just for you. You might believe but would future generations believe?. If they would just believe in what "they can see" and they would just have to take your word for it, the conclusion would be that they would not believe neither in God nor in your word.

After all, isn't this the same thing that has happened over and over again???? The Bible contains your very same doubts and proposals: God freed the jews from slavery and they believed in Him for a while, but after a few years they started to worship an idol made of gold.............. so much for human faith.

That's why Jesus Christ addressed this issue during another episode of "human disbelief": Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (Jn 20:29)

Another quote from alt.atheism, please forgive the tone towards the end:

"Seems to me that Christians worship the incredible shrinking god. I mean at one time it was supposedly capable of flinging thousands of billions of galaxies into existence with a mere thought. By the time of Noah, it was reduced to flooding an insignificant speck in the cosmos. By the time of Moses, its best trick was moving a tiny portion of a minor sea aside for a short while. By the time of Jesus, it has to send a delegate on its behalf who leaves behind only rumors that he was able to turn water into another beverage, or render himself extra buoyant. Now it counts as a miracle if a water stain grows mold that kind of looks like a bearded face which could be claimed to resemble this supposed delegate. How much more pathetic can this god get? How do Christians manage to sing praises of its glory and greatness without feeling like fools--or at best, like new parents gushing over their toddler's ability to make a pee." - Kronk

God made huge miracles at first because the faith of the early jews was like the faith of a little child: it needed a whole lot of guidance, but now that we live even after the Messiah came to Earth to redeem mankind, we ought to behave like adults and that's exactly what God expects from us. His revelation has matured and so have we.

[Guest Scaramallion]

That is not my point at all: precisely because humans can only know what their senses tell their brains, there are no ideas we never learned. Like Fovezer said, God is indeed taught and that's why we have to read the Bible and learn the doctrine and so on but the point is that God at some point revealed those truths to several individuals (the prophets of the OT) and that's why we know concepts about God that don't exist in nature and therefore can't be learned by the observation of nature (like the example I gave before about the difference between the concept of immortality of pagan gods and the concept of eternal of the revealed God of christianity).

I'll start with this post first, though I won't be able to respond to the other at least until I get home.

You are making the error of assuming that the God (YHWH) of today was exactly like the YHWH of three thousand years ago. Just because the YHWH of today appears to be, in your words, a "seperate entity from the material universe," doesn't necessarily mean that the Israelites of millenia ago believed exactly the same thing.

This is most definately not a claim backed up in Scripture. [When I get home, and have access to my notes I will provide proper examples where God certainly acts no more 'dignified' than contemporary gods.] The YHWH myth has undergone as much development as any other god, and it is rather obvious that it had roots where YHWH was indeed very humanlike. (He has temper tantrums, gets jealous, he wrestles with Jacob, he smells Noah's sacrifice and eats at Abraham's table. He created man in his own image, is responsible for famine and pestilence. He is responsible for the weather, the thunder is his voice, he appeared as a burning bush - which is a bit like Zeus appearing as a swan and bull. And these are only examples off the top of my head.)

I should note that when referring to only getting data from the senses, I meant data on the physical universe. What colour this desk it, what it feels like, and so on. Now here is the important part - the human mind can make novel associations. It's called imagination, and it's what you keep overlooking. Now add time to the mix and eventually you end up with something like YHWH. Do you really think the myth of Zeus started out as a 'fully formed' Greek Myth? No, it started small, perhaps a tribe or two, underwent some development when a few more tribes signed up, and hundreds of years later he becomes the head of a whole pantheon.

I scanned the thread and didn't notice anything on the "immortality of pagan gods..." perhaps you can tell me which page it is on?

Could you elaborate on which "concepts about God...don't exist in nature and therefore can't be learned..."?

[irishcowboy]

You are making the error of assuming that the God (YHWH) of today was exactly like the YHWH of three thousand years ago.

'This is most definately not a claim backed up in Scripture.'

ummm, actually, it does, the Holy Scripture does tell us that God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Tomarrow...

mike

[Guest Scaramallion]

ummm, actually, it does, the Holy Scripture does tell us that God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Tomarrow...

Leaving aside the point that you deliberately and maliciously quoted me out of context - clearly I was talking about the difference between the "non-material entity" God and the 'hands-on' God of the Old and New Testaments, let's look at a few examples of God acting very much like the classic Greek god, complete with temper tantrums.

God engages in a wrestling match (Genesis 32:22-32)

God floods the entire world (Genesis 7)

God requires sacrifices - too numerous to mention them all, but see especially Genesis 8:20, 15:9-11, Genesis 22, Exodus 20:24, 27:1-8, 29:38-46.

God appears in the form of a burning bush (Exodus 3), three men (angels, perhaps?) who then eat a meal with Abraham (Genesis 18).

God is responsible for the plague on Egypt (Exodus 7 through 12) the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah (Genesis 19) where he turns Lot's wife into a pillar of salt.

God is jealous (Deuteronomy 5:9, Exodus 20:5 and others)

God is loses his temper (Deuteronomy 13:17, 2 Samuel. 24:1, Numbers. 11:1 and others)

God plays favourites (Deuteronomy 7:6, 14:2, Genesis 4:4-5, 12:1-3 and many others) Note that God chose the Israelites alone to reveal himself to - a trademark of a tribal myth. I think I may discuss this more later on.

He intended to punish the Israelites by forcing them to become cannibals (Lev 16:27-29. See also Jeremiah 19:9, Isaiah 49:26 and Ezekiel 5:10)

Also, the myth of the creation of the world is identical in features - when taken literally - to the other creation myths of the world. All are incredibly simplistic (God did it!) perfect for primitive people, and all are now known to be wrong.

I should note that I left out a significant number of other examples of YHWH acting very much like a personified deity.

These are the acts of an immature Greek god, not the God you claim is removed from all human experience, a "seperate entity from the material universe."

Now, commenting on the revelation of YHWH to the Israelites alone, wouldn't you agree that this favoritism is remarkably similar to how other myths begin? I would have been far, far more convinced had YHWH revealed himself to three seperate tribes in three seperate locations on earth, say the Middle East, South America and the Far East, and whose prophets had all told an identical story. Instead, YHWH's method of revelation appears the same as what we would expect from a local myth development, which eventually became the fully fledged Abrahamics we see today.

And Mike, I would appreciate an apology for what you did.

[Guest Scaramallion]

I already dealt with the bulk of this post, but I would like to add some comments on:

...and the physical appearance of God (Jesus Christ) was hardly the archetype of any human ideals (He was executed in the company of 2 criminals).

Hmm, I am curious as to what justification you used for this statement.

1. According to Christianity, Jesus was perfect.

2. According to Christianity, Jesus was without sin.

3. According to the Bible, Jesus performed miracles - raising the dead, feeding the masses and so on.

4. According to the Bible, Jesus rose from the dead.

5. According to Christianity, Jesus was the son of God.

6. According to the Bible, Jesus was the wisest man ever.

7. According to the Christianity, Jesus was born from a virgin.

Hardly the archetype of any human ideals indeed.

If you think the Jesus figure couldn't have been invented from human minds, perhaps you would care to comment on Mithra's achievements - which are remarkably similar.

[Guest Scaramallion]

Let's suppose He performed that miracle just for you. You might believe but would future generations believe?. If they would just believe in what "they can see" and they would just have to take your word for it, the conclusion would be that they would not believe neither in God nor in your word.

I asked that God provide proof of his existence to me, not future generations.

For a being capable of - to quote Kronk again - "flinging thousands of billions of galaxies into existence with a mere thought" lining up a few stars for what would only have to be enough time for me to see them, and perhaps take a photo or two, would scarcely be much bother.

After all, isn't this the same thing that has happened over and over again???? The Bible contains your very same doubts and proposals: God freed the jews from slavery and they believed in Him for a while, but after a few years they started to worship an idol made of gold.............. so much for human faith.

Indeed.

It is rather strange that the Israelites - being witness to God causing plagues for their benefit and then parting the Red Sea - then choose to worship golden calves. Perhaps God didn't actually do any of these things, modern archaeology does put the notion of an Exodus in grave doubt after all.

You position, that even if unbelievers were witnesses of a divine miracle good enough to make belief in God reasonable, is akin to poisoning the well. I doubt you are that sure of your position to think that all, or even most, people would dismiss such proof. I certainly wouldn't, and I am quite skeptical of all claims.

God made huge miracles at first because the faith of the early jews was like the faith of a little child: it needed a whole lot of guidance, but now that we live even after the Messiah came to Earth to redeem mankind, we ought to behave like adults and that's exactly what God expects from us. His revelation has matured and so have we.

I will only note that the more developed human society got, the more able to test claims, the more scientific knowledge we developed, the smaller God got.

Once upon a time he was responsible for plagues, floods, earthquakes, famines, the weather and the creation of all forms of life. Now about all Christians say God is responsible for is "First Cause," which is simply an argument from ignorance on their part.

The more able we got at testing miracles, the less they occured, and the less 'miraculous' they became. Forgive a cynic, but I find this more telling than a claim, an unbiblical claim I might add, that God's revelation "matured."

Matthew 18

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

2 He called a little child and had him stand among them.

3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 18

16 But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 

17 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

If I have misinterpreted such statements, please forgive me.

[Matthitjah]

Hello friend,

I asked that God provide proof of his existence to me, not future generations.

Look around the Heavens and the Earth provide this. All of Creation screams of His Glory.

Ps

[irishcowboy]

God is still the same God today as He was in the Old Testament......

taking out of context???? na, if i did, it means it needs to be more clear as to what you was saying...... maybe you wrote out of context..........

me? appoligize for keeping the Lord God as my center of focus?????

NO WAY,

NO,

NEVER,

NOT ON YOUR LIFE,

WONT DO,

NO CAN DO,

WILL CONTINUE DOING THIS,

you get the idea???? I stand on the rock......

God engages in a wrestling match (Genesis 32:22-32)

God still engages in wrestling matches, ask anyone that has ran from God...... the Spirit of God wrestles with the soul of man on a daily bassis....... how many keep feeling the tug, no PULL from God to go into some form of ministry? and walk away????

God floods the entire world (Genesis 7)

God promised he would not destroy the entire world with water again, a sign of this promise has been set in the sky......

God requires sacrifices - too numerous to mention them all, but see especially Genesis 8:20, 15:9-11, Genesis 22, Exodus 20:24, 27:1-8, 29:38-46.

God sent His Son Jesus, His only Son, to be the ultimate, the last and final sacrafice to cover all our sins, not just a scape goat, but a total one hundred percent coverage, which was the begining of a new covenent., also, so that we do not have to have any more blood sacrafices, the Lord Jesus Christ was teh final blood sacrafice.... there is no need to require anymore now.....

God appears in the form of a burning bush (Exodus 3),

three men (angels, perhaps?) who then eat a meal with Abraham (Genesis 18).

How do you think God has appeared to you???? I have seen a physical sighting of a spiritual being, well, only the hand, but I have seen..... what proof do you need???

God is responsible for the plague on Egypt (Exodus 7 through 12) the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah (Genesis 19) where he turns Lot's wife into a pillar of salt.

God has been very lenient with the world, just as a father would be lenient with their own children...... you discipline, discipline, punish, discipline, punish and every time you forgive..... pretty soon, you tend to get tired of the punish part, and just lay the law down, and your rebellious child will soon get his...... just as the rebellious children of Lot..... just as the children of Job....... just as the rebellious children of Eli .....

The plagues God has instore for this world are worse then ever before, if you wish you can stick around to see them, I do not even want to think of how horrid they will be.....

God still plays favorites ( if you wish to term it as such )

God Blesses those that are faithful to Him, Blesses those that Honor Him..... and well, those that curse God are cursing themselves to an eternity of death.....

God did not force anyone to become a cannible, there was a time when two women ate one of their children, and then the next day they was going to eat the others child, but the second lady renigged on it and well, this was at a time when the nation of Isreal, was in rebellion against God......

saying God forced them to do that would also be like saying you are forcing your child to do crystal meth or heroine, or cocain, or rat poison, or bleach..... hog wash..

what kind of proof do you need to know that God is alive and well?????

do you wish to find out like Anninias and his wife????

or do you wish to find out like Lots wife????

or like the rest of the world did when God flooded the world and would not take the word of Noah????

how do you wish to find out????

if people are not careful, they will be shown the proof they want, not what has already been shown them, on the day of judgement, and that day will be toooooo late to do anything about it......

if you have to see God yourself to know that He exist, you obviously have not looked around much....

if God were to show up in your living room right now, the radiance from the Glory shining from His face would blind you...... His full presence would put you down as if you were dead, if it didnt kill you......

the Isrealites could not even handle the remnance of the faiding light from the face of Moses, when Moses had only seen the backside of the Lord God..... if they could not handle the faiding light, how can you handle the LOrd God being in your presence????

just seeing Jesus, Paul was blinded for three days......

God is still the same, Today, yesterday, yesteryear, and also tomorrow..... never changing, always knowing, knowing all, He is Lord, He is God...........

you seem to know the words of God, but you dont seem to know the WORD.

all God wants from us is a one on one relationship, a Father to child relationship.....

and all we are doing is acting like a bunch of spoiled rotten kids..... unruley, rebellious, brats........ until we repent of our doings and turn back towards God, we are lost...... God has given us an inch, and we are talking a mile..... God has been very patient with us...... the entire earth.......

just a word for any one that wishes to heed :

Gods Light is still in this world, but the shadows are growing long, the day is coming to a close, and soon the Light of God will be removed from this world, and those that have the Light with them will be removed also, and those that do not have the light of God with them will be in darkness, they will be at the mercy of the evil one, that has been deceiving them, and will torment them thruout eternity..... as the voice in the wilderness called out, repent........ and turn from your evil ways...... it is time that all Gods children relay the call...... Repent for the day draws to a close, the time is come for the Lord God to have the trumpet sounded and for the Son of God to gather up those that are faithful to Him......

[irishcowboy]

here is a little story that might shed some light on things.......

there are these two college students, one a professed athiest, and the other a new Christian....

they were roommates.....

one evening while the newChristian was studying.... He yells out Awesome, Praise the Lord.....

the athiest, asked what was going on... and the new Christian replyed that God just parted the Red Sea for the Children of God to pass thru on dry land.....

the athiest, then said, it is a proven fact that at certain times of the year, that there are places that there is only an inch or so of water, and if the wind blows just right, that it will actually have dry land show up........ and a person could walk across......

the new CHristian replyed , Oh, ok.... and continued reading.......

after a few minutes.... he shouted out " Praise God, WOW, Neat, Awesome, that is so cool...." the athiest turned and said " what now....... "

the new Christian answered by saying that God just drowned the entire egyptian army and their horses in two inches of water........

folks, either way you look at this, it is an act of God.... even if both ways are true, it is still an act of God.....

to have enough water to drown a horse ( or hundreds of them ) you need alot of water.... to allow a nation to pass thru you have to have a wide enough path to let them pass with many people abreast of each other....

God is Good.....

mike