Sabbath on saturday or sunday?

[arvy]

THE "LAW" WAS NOT GIVEN TO THE GENTILES.

"When the Gentiles, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW do by nature the things contained in the Law, these, having NOT THE LAW, are a law unto themselves." Ro 2:14.

The "Law" was given to Israel exclusively. For illustration take the "Law of the Sabbath." It was not given to the Gentiles. It was given as the "SIGN" of the "Mosaic Covenant." Ex 31:13; Eze 20:12,19-21. The "Sabbath Day" belongs to the Jews alone and is not binding on the Gentiles (the World), or on the Church (Christians). Nowhere in the Bible do we find God finding fault with any nation or people, except the Jews, for not observing the Sabbath. As a Jewish ordinance it has never been changed, or transferred to any other day of the week, or to any other people. It was foretold in Ho 2:11; 3:4-5, it would be. It is to be resumed when the Jews are nationally restored to their own land. Isa 66:23; Eze 44:24; 46:1-3.

arvy ''ere, E.B.

This argument you present is, from an honest perception of scripture, far removed from intent of the statements of those verses cited. When they are read for absolute understanding of intent they will be read in their complete contexts.

Those who use this "theological" manner to excuse themselve from the "Memorial" day (the cited week day of "Remembrance") by including all the days of 'ordained annual ceremonial ordinance' with regard to types and sacrifices. are in grave confusion in general over who Jesus is and what His power is with regard to the power of His own resurrection.

While Mose may have been the instrument of delivering the "Ten" commandment to A people whom He had just delivered from the bondage of slavery, and made the a Nation to Himself. You will find, By the Bible, that He did so in honoring His own words of promise to Abraham. But now, in this era of the "present truth," according to the "covenant of the blood" of the "New Testament" (the blood of Messiah and of the Creator of all things From the Beginning) all mmen are of the offspring of Jesus the Christ of Abraham and all the prophets.

As Jsesus himself said, "He came not to destroy the Law or the prophets; but to fulfill..." Many desire that "fulfill" but in the truth of Prophetical context of the Holy Scriptures it simply means bringing His own words into firm reality. And that is why He inspired the very writings of the book to the "Hebrews" regarding the types and antitypes of His Heavenly Preist hood, which should thence forth from His ascension, have "caused all sacrifice and oblation to cease" and all those "ceremonial Sabbaths" which were a very part of those ordained "Annual rituals."

But; it should be clear to us from our Creator/savior's own life example in history, that He still desired the weekly day He Himself gave reason and number to, and instituted first to Adam and Eve, then later wrote on tables of stone Himself, amid other nine of ten commands, "for the Good" of all who would choose to hold those words in moral and, Memorial "respect to His love, His knowedge, His power, His authority as both Creator and Giver of Life, in whom only we obtain life everlasting, at the last day, by that same power, the power to Recreate, to resurrect the decayed: whether righteous or wicked: The righteous in the First Resurrectioin. the non believers in the Second Resurrection.

May we all meet together, "in the air," with those "blessed" with everlasting life on the day of the First Resurrection; when the dead in Christ shall rise First, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up to be with them and from then forward, be forever with our Lord.

[Guest yod]

THE "LAW" WAS NOT GIVEN TO THE GENTILES.

"When the Gentiles, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW do by nature the things contained in the Law, these, having NOT THE LAW, are a law unto themselves." Ro 2:14.

The "Law" was given to Israel exclusively. For illustration take the "Law of the Sabbath." It was not given to the Gentiles. It was given as the "SIGN" of the "Mosaic Covenant." Ex 31:13; Eze 20:12,19-21. The "Sabbath Day" belongs to the Jews alone and is not binding on the Gentiles (the World), or on the Church (Christians). Nowhere in the Bible do we find God finding fault with any nation or people, except the Jews, for not observing the Sabbath. As a Jewish ordinance it has never been changed, or transferred to any other day of the week, or to any other people. It was foretold in Ho 2:11; 3:4-5, it would be. It is to be resumed when the Jews are nationally restored to their own land. Isa 66:23; Eze 44:24; 46:1-3.

While I agree with the general sentiment of your post, I think your interpretation of that verse doesn't fully comprehend Paul's teaching on the matter and therefore renders an exactly opposite of what Paul is actually intending to say with this one verse.

He's saying "when the Gentiles WHO ARE IGNORANT OF WHAT IS IN THE LAW do by nature the things contained in the law (in other words, they are keeping it instintively) these, having NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE LETTER OF THE LETTER, are a law unto themselves"

In other words, by doing and observing the righteousness of the law (the spirit of why the law is given) they are proof that the Law is written on their heart. What is the spirit of the law? Micah says it best as was quoted earlier in the thread. "To do good, love justice, and walk humbly with God"

Doing good, loving justice, and walking humbly with God is best defined by God Himself in His Word....not some vague suggestion of relative morality where each man decides what "good" or "justice" or "walking humbly with God" means.

And the HOLY SPIRIT can not contradict Himself for He is God. In other words, you can't say the Holy Spirit directed you to break the law and interpret the commandments apart from the Word itself.

What Paul is NOT saying is that the Gentiles are free to break the commandments without any consequence.

[Eddie B]

Hello' ARVY and YOD,

Your right the post i did on THE "LAW" WAS NOT GIVEN TO THE GENTILES was out of context and can be misleading,sorry about that.

That post was based on several previous posts i made.Heres one of them that might clear up my position on the sabbath day.

Iam just saying i dont focus on trying to obey any law, except the law of Christ.Someone may focus on the 7 day sabbath that on Exodus 20, I focus on the sabbath that is fulfilled in Christ (Heb. 4.)

A previous post i did:

As I said in certain situations i would not have a problem celebrating the passover in order to reach the Jew or to reconcile a brother to Christ.But i whould not practice the Sabbath as a N.T. Christian because the N.T. doesn't tell me to do so in the same way the O.T. Jew was to do, because we have a new covenant thats better then the old one according to Hebrews because of Christ.

Its true Christ practice the Sabbath, because He was a JEW under the Law who whould fulfill the Law for you and me.

The ? in my mind is how does the Christian not only obey the Sabbath, the 4 commandment, but all of the 10 commandments today? According to the N.T.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So then how is the Law fulfilled in us?By Christ living in us and through us by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The N.T. saint is not only not to commit murder, but he is not to even hate someone, a much higher and harder law to obey if it were possible for me to obey, which i cant.

So then how is the Christian today according to the N. T. going to fulfill obeying the Sabbath.Again it whould be through what Christ accomplished on the cross.

The Sabbath in the O.T. was to be a day of rest from work, and communion with God.Thats a blessing from God to His people.

We as Christians because of Gods grace enter into a better Sabbath(rest)according to Heb. 4.

As God rested on the seventh day from His work of creation, the true believer today rests in the completed work of the Lord Jesus Christ. In order to enter into God's rest, a person must quietly accept God's work. He must cease from his own work. Salvation is God's gift.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

[wordsower]

Sorry I dropped out for a few days, I had an extremely difficult weekend. The result is that someone dear to me was admitted to a mental institution, please pray for me and mine. This is a definate spiritual battle.

Point #1 -

NO ONE is allowed to pick on my friend, Wordsower. She isn't coming at this with any malice but she has been hurt by legalists so it is a very sensitive subject for her. Let's agree in love to disagree if we must but we are all brothers and sister here, ok?

Aaaawww, aint that sweet??

QUOTE

See, now we are reasoning together instead of attacking each other.

I hope you didn't see my sarcasm as a personal attack. It was more of "pointed" joke and I responded to your post particularly because I thought you would understand that.

normally I would, sometimes it's hard to get the humor in print on the screen, glad we are back on the same page.

yes and amen...that is the spirit of the law.

Would it be unreasonable to interpret the "walk humbly" part as being obedient to His Word over what we might otherwise want to do? Not in a controlling/manipulative/legalistic/religious sense (which would be "self" righteousness) but with the faith of a child?

That would be reasonable to me if that is what you or someone else chose to do, but for myself, if I interpreted it that way it would be a false humility of guilt of pleasing someone other than God. I honestly do not believe that God requires me to observe Saturday anymore than He would require me to sacrifice animals. I do sincerely believe that instead of requiring me to observe Saturday, He requires me to abide in Him every moment of everyday. I know that when I was SDA I was very religious on Saturday, ie, not listening to secular radio, no tv, blah blah but the rest of the week I did whatever. Now, I get a bad conscience if I watch junk on tv--any day. Does that make any sense? I'm the same daily instead of once a week, it's much better for my relationship with Christ, if the Sabbath brings you closer to God than great, I'm all for it!

[Guest yod]

(Lea-anne @ Aug 28 2007, 12:58 PM)

Just for discussion. I am not a LDS and I go to church on a Sunday. I do not judge the LDS because they keep the Sabbath (Saturday) and they do it as described in the OT; no working, cooking etc.

I didn't realize Mormons did that?

The question I ask is "is my salvation questioned because I do not keep the Sabbath as described in the OT?"

No. Why would you think that?

I work on Saturdays and I feel in my heart that God blessed me with this job.

good for you

I pay my 10% tithes and He blesses me even more.

That is also "OT Law" so why are you doing that?

Paul did say that 'One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. (Rom 14:5).

He said that to people who observed Shabbat

He also said 'Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ'.(Col 2:16-17).

He said that to people who observed Shabbat

I would just like to know others' point of view because truly feel that I have a place on the Book of Life even though I do not keep the Sabbath on a Saturday.

There is no condemnation for those who are in Messiah Yeshua and walk according to the Spirit! I had to work on Saturdays many times and even dropped out for a couple of football seasons when my sons were playing. It's not a matter of legality but a special time of appointment with God.

Is "salvation" the only purpose of being born again? I started observing Shabbat because God commanded it and found that "we" don't keep Shabbat, it keeps us. That is how the jewish people have survived and maintained themselves as a unique people on the earth for about 5,000 years. Entering the Shabbat is an ancient connection to the Creator through His creation. We have the Messiah as our connection to the Father now, yet that doesn't negate the fact that He is still the Creator of the world, does it?

I do find it strange how one's personal "salvation" is all that is considered by christians when choosing whether to obey God's will on this or not.

But there is no condemnation either way...we are fully brother/sister in Yeshua

[methinkshe]

(Lea-anne @ Aug 28 2007, 12:58 PM)

Just for discussion. I am not a LDS and I go to church on a Sunday. I do not judge the LDS because they keep the Sabbath (Saturday) and they do it as described in the OT; no working, cooking etc.

I didn't realize Mormons did that?

The question I ask is "is my salvation questioned because I do not keep the Sabbath as described in the OT?"

No. Why would you think that?

I work on Saturdays and I feel in my heart that God blessed me with this job.

good for you

I pay my 10% tithes and He blesses me even more.

That is also "OT Law" so why are you doing that?

Paul did say that 'One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. (Rom 14:5).

He said that to people who observed Shabbat

He also said 'Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ'.(Col 2:16-17).

He said that to people who observed Shabbat

I would just like to know others' point of view because truly feel that I have a place on the Book of Life even though I do not keep the Sabbath on a Saturday.

There is no condemnation for those who are in Messiah Yeshua and walk according to the Spirit! I had to work on Saturdays many times and even dropped out for a couple of football seasons when my sons were playing. It's not a matter of legality but a special time of appointment with God.

Is "salvation" the only purpose of being born again? I started observing Shabbat because God commanded it and found that "we" don't keep Shabbat, it keeps us. That is how the jewish people have survived and maintained themselves as a unique people on the earth for about 5,000 years. Entering the Shabbat is an ancient connection to the Creator through His creation. We have the Messiah as our connection to the Father now, yet that doesn't negate the fact that He is still the Creator of the world, does it?

I do find it strange how one's personal "salvation" is all that is considered by christians when choosing whether to obey God's will on this or not.

But there is no condemnation either way...we are fully brother/sister in Yeshua

Well said, Yod. I appreciate your insights.

In Jesus,

Ruth

[Guest yod]

I honestly do not believe that God requires me to observe Saturday anymore than He would require me to sacrifice animals.

you do realize that there is still a sacrificial system, right?

The Lamb used for sacrifice and the place where it is done is what makes the New Covenant "new"

[wordsower]

you do realize that there is still a sacrificial system, right?

My neighbor up the street just got a bunch of goats and put them in her back yard, maybe she'll let me have one for tonight.

[nanasimmons]

Yod said:

you do realize that there is still a sacrificial system, right?

The Priestly sacrifice was completed when Christ entered the Holy of Holies and applied His own blood the the true altar...Then He sat down...He payed for ALL the sins of those who belong to Him...

Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

HIS RIGHTEUOSNESS is imputed unto us...There is not one stinking righteous act that any one of us could do to add to or take away from HIS PERFECT RIGHTEOUSNESS, which is the only righteousness God will accept....ALL OF OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS IS AS FILTHY RAGS....

Phi 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Phi 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

Phi 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Phi 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Phi 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Phi 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written. The just shall live by faith.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

ECT...ECT...

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

[Guest yod]

thank you for pointing out what the sacrificial system STILL DOES TODAY

If you have not brought the blood of this spotless Lamb for your sin, then you will be charged with every law of the Torah you ever broke on judgement day.

The sacrificial system is still intact or there was no reason for Yeshua to die.