The Fourth Beast of Daniel 7

[Tubal-Cain]

Sorry but I don't consider any part of the Bible to be in error.

There are different concepts of biblical inspiration. Pretty much everyone holds that the Bible is correct on theological issues but not everyone holds that view on historical matters, which is the crux of our debate here.

The idea that the book of Daniel was not written during his life time (605-536 B.C.) has its origins anchored with modern liberalists who are embarrassed by the supernatural powers of prophesy.

The dating I am proposing was first proposed in the 3rd century AD, so it hardly has its origins among "modern liberalists who are embarrassed by the supernatural powers of prophesy." Moreover, the dating is not based on an anti-supernatural basis at all, but on what dating makes the best sense of the contents of the book.

Daniel not only wrote in the first person identifying himself as the author

Most apocalypses are pseudonymous and written in the first person. The book of 1 Enoch contains first person narrative but no one thinks Enoch actually wrote the book. The book of Revelation is a rare exception to this rule.

Christ Himself authenticates his person in Mathew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)".

Jesus Christ believed that Daniel was the author

Christ made no claims to who wrote the book of Daniel in the passage you quoted. He alludes to words spoken by Daniel. There is a difference.

so therefore, alluding to the modern liberalist view that the writings were done by someone other than Daniel at a later date removes and challenges the authority of Christ in Mathew 24:15.

First, the authority of Christ is certainly not removed in Matthew 24:15 since his prophecy was clearly fulfilled in 70 AD. Second, Christ's authority is not challenged if one does not make the false assumption he is referring to the authorship of Daniel.

They see these written Prophecies as observations because the Prophecies are so accurate it is assumed that it had to be written at a later date other than during the life time of Daniel.

Wrong. It is the combination of accurate and inaccurate prophecies that is best explained by the dating I am proposing.

Imperial and Aramaic archeology have confirmed the early date of the writings.

How so? The earliest manuscripts (which are the only archaeological evidence available for dating) are from the Dead Sea Scrolls and hence after the date I am proposing.

[Tubal-Cain]

So which parts of Daniel are real and which parts are false?

I don't see how the prophecies of the end times took place at the time predicted in Daniel.

Is it possible that the entire book was written after the fact?

I'm merely claiming that the book reached its present-day form before 164 BC.

My personal belief is that there is no error in the words of Daniel.

That's fine. There are different ideas on inerrancy.

The 4th kingdom in my opinion, is in the process of building itself.

In light of Daniel 2, why do you hold that opinion? That chapter says that Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom is the first kingdom and that it's followed by 3 other kingdoms.

[Tubal-Cain]

Danial 8:20-24

20 The ram which you saw, having the two horns

[Joshua-777]

Danial 8:20-24

20 The ram which you saw, having the two horns

[Tubal-Cain]

Thanks for your detailed response Christopher John. I don't have the time for a response now but I will look things over when I have time.

Josh-13, the reason I think that Media and Persia are separate beasts is because Daniel has the Babylonians being overthrown by the Medes who are then overthrown by the Persians (it's in the chapter about the writing on the wall).

Second, the Greek empire broke into 4 kingdoms after the death of Alexander the Great (323 BC). Rome did not overthrow the Greeks at that time.

[Guest man]

The 4th kingdom in my opinion, is in the process of building itself.

In light of Daniel 2, why do you hold that opinion? That chapter says that Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom is the first kingdom and that it's followed by 3 other kingdoms.

Daniel 7:23 The 4th beast shall be a 4th kingdom on earth, Which shall be different from all other kingdoms , And shall devour the whole earth...

I believe the 4th beast is the Nation of Islam.

[Openly Curious]

It been stated that the 4th beast in Daniel 7 was the kingdom of Alexander the Great.

Your thought's.

I fully agree. The little horn that spoke arrogantly refers to Antiochus IV Epiphanes who persecuted the Jews and the Jewish religion. For more information on this persecution and the Maccabean revolt I recommend reading the books of 1 Maccabees and 2 Maccabees.

I disagree. The 4th beast is the final Empire that will conclude the "Times of the Gentiles" it is the final stage in Gentile rule over Israel prior to the Second Coming. It is an empire that follows Roman Imperialism by which the whole world operates via economics today.

A key element to this is in verse 23 where it says the 4th beast shall devour the "whole earth" Alexander the Great did not conquer the whole earth and it should not be assumed that he did so symbolically in this situation.

23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

The Roman Empire ushered in economics, trade, buying and selling, monetary exchange, the entire earth has been devoured by global economics. No country can escape it, even the hardest socialist communist regimes must buy and sell in order to survive.

In verse 26 we also have Judgment being passed on the 4th beast defining the destruction of this 4th empire by the Second Coming, . If it was the empire of Alexander the Great that Judgment was cast upon, why does Daniel 7 speak of Christs return and His Kingdom (v.13-14) at the same time or immediately following the destruction of this 4th empire or beast?

2nd Coming:

13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Judgment and Millennial Reign:

26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Peace

CJ

Very good interpretation of Bible prophecy CJ and it is good to see.

The interpretation of the fourth beast is given all one has to do is "READ" and study Daniel 7:15-27 to find out what God is going to do in the end-times as Jesus Christ is going to come and take possession of the kingdoms of this world and set up His kingdom.

OC

[MK202002]

It been stated that the 4th beast in Daniel 7 was the kingdom of Alexander the Great.

Your thought's.

I think the fourth beast is a coalaition of modern/ future nations, because when all four beasts from daniel 4 are put in a blender, we get something that looks like the Revelation 13 beast.

daniel beast #1 (1 head)

daniel beast #2 (1 head)

daniel beast #3 (4 heads)

daniel beast #4 (1 head, 10 horns) = a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns. how coincidental is that? These beasts/kingdoms must have united, that's why the merge.

there are other paralles- daniel's beasts comes out of the sea, (vs. 3) and so does the one in Rev 13 (vs.1) what other visions mention this?

Also the revelation 13 beast has parts of bear, lion and leopard; rev 13: 2

also- the vision does not end with the forth beast, see in verses 8-28, and angel even explains the vision. The angel says that this last beast will oppress the saints untill his power is destroyed. I think it really sounds like Jesus's return, because of verse 27, when all power of the nations will be handed over to the saints. It sounds very final to me.

Daniel 7

25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. [a]

26 " 'But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'

[Openly Curious]

'MK202002'

I think the fourth beast is a coalaition of modern/ future nations, because when all four beasts from daniel 4 are put in a blender, we get something that looks like the Revelation 13 beast.

daniel beast #1 (1 head)

daniel beast #2 (1 head)

daniel beast #3 (4 heads)

daniel beast #4 (1 head, 10 horns) = a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns. how coincidental is that? These beasts/kingdoms must have united, that's why the merge.

there are other paralles- daniel's beasts comes out of the sea, (vs. 3) and so does the one in Rev 13 (vs.1) what other visions mention this?

Hello Mk202002,

I would just like to say that I see the sincerity in your study of the word the key to bible prophecy interpretation is just the same as interpreting scriptures and that is to rightly divide the word as you are endeavouring to do. I'll give you an example the four horsemen in Revelation 6 that rode as the seals were being open. This also is mentioned in Zechariah 1:11 & 6:1-8 and if you will get out a map when studying you will learn what the north and south countries are.

I think that you are on the right track as the beasts all are seeking to conquer one another as all are seeking to be the dominant world leader during this time on earth and some of the kings will give there power over to the others but we know that God has foretold to us that the anti-christ will gain dominion over all the kingdoms of the earth eventually and when this happens that is when the saints will be tremendously oppressed because the anti-christ will try to cause all upon the earth to worship him and to recieve his mark. But in Daniel 7 it talks about the little horn that came up among the other horns known as the stone hewn out of the mountains in scripture as Christ will come and take dominion of all the kingdoms of this world back from the anti-christ and set up his kingdom in the earth.

I personally think that all the things that are going on in the Middle East right now is leading up to Mystery Babylon being brought about but it will be slow in coming and I think Iran though it is very troubled right now will in time go on to be a thriving place of economy. I actually think as time rolls on some of us will be amazed as we look back on things in years to come. I think back even when Sadaam Hussein thought that he was Nebuchanezzar and was to rebuild Babylon the great. But the nations and kingdoms of this world as we know them now will all change in time and come under the dominion of the ten kings who will battle it out till all kingdoms of the earth come under the dominion of one leader being the anti-christ. That is why you have the diversity in the beasts because they are kings who are trying to get world dominion.

Also the revelation 13 beast has parts of bear, lion and leopard; rev 13: 2

also- the vision does not end with the forth beast, see in verses 8-28, and angel even explains the vision. The angel says that this last beast will oppress the saints untill his power is destroyed. I think it really sounds like Jesus's return, because of verse 27, when all power of the nations will be handed over to the saints. It sounds very final to me.

Daniel 7

25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. [a]

26 " 'But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'

Daniel 7:21--Revelation 17:14

Daniel 7:22--Revelation 1:6

Daniel 7:24--Revelation 17:12

Daniel 7:25--Isaiah 37:23; Rev. 17:6; Daniel 2:21; Rev. 13:7; Rev 12:14

Daniel 7:26--Daniel 7:10, 22

Daniel 7:27--Daniel 7:14, 18; Luke 1:33; John 12:34; Rev 11:15; Isaiah 60:12

Hope this will help your study a bit.

OC

[rollinTHUNDER]

It been stated that the 4th beast in Daniel 7 was the kingdom of Alexander the Great.

Your thought's.

Those who say this have a lack of basic understanding of eschatology. There is a big differnce between the 4th beast and the four horns that came up from the horn on the 3rd beast. The 4th beast has ten horns, and another little one will rise among these. You can also relate these ten to the toes on the feet of the image in King Neb's dream (chapter 2). And these are the same ten that Christ, (the rock made without hands) will smash when He returns.