Guest Calamity Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 The only place you will find it in the Bible is in Genesis 3:4 where Satan told Eve that sin wouldn't lead to spiritual death, thereby making OSAS/UES/POS a doctrine of demons, as refered to in 1 Peter 4:1. OSAS is a doctrine of demons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted January 17, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Amen endure4salvation, Jedi4Yahweh and His son. You all save me time in answering my sentiments. Peace, William Yea, it amazes me that even though OSAS/UES/POS was not taught for 1,500 years it is now somehow proven fact. The only place you will find it in the Bible is in Genesis 3:4 where Satan told Eve that sin wouldn't lead to spiritual death, thereby making OSAS/UES/POS a doctrine of demons, as refered to in 1 Peter 4:1. OK Jake, what is POS? When it is safe, I would like one of us to start another thread on Hebrews 10. First we need to get past, if we can, our discussion on OSAS/UES. We are at an impasse --- deadlock ---stalemate! Let's end it...there is so much else to discuss and learn from each other. I would like to have a serious discussion regarding verses 18 and 26 in Hebrews 10. I am absolutely confident on my position in OSAS/UES. I still have questions about "no sacrifice left" though. I believe, in my heart, that it takes quite a lot for a man to walk away from God and once he does, he wouldn't ever return on his own again... just like Pharaoh whom God hardened his heart only after Pharaoh hardened his own. I just have never done a full study to give me 100% surety. Seriously, when y'all finish this, let's discuss Hebrews. I am curious as to all your points of view. God Bless, Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SisterT-Enduring2TheEnd Posted January 17, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 97 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 17, 2004 WE WILL GET OUR REWARDS FOR OUR WORKS DONE ON THIS EARTH FOR JESUS, BUT WE WILL NOT LOSE OUR SALVATION UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCIS. So, a true child of God can steal, lie, murder, etc and still be saved? Then they wonder why this doctrine is considered a license to sin. Claiming a "true child of God" won't do these things is silly, considering that it is your doctrine that says that Christians must sin everyday because they cannot help themselves. Sorry but Scripture warns TRUE, BORN-AGAIN, BLOOD-BOUGHT CHRISTIANS (BELIEVERS) to avoid sin. Now, if we have to avoid it then that tells me that we can become ensnared and entangled in it again and, according to the Scriptures, there are dire consequences if one does and those consequences are far more serious than some so-called "loss of rewards". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWJ Posted January 17, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 455 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 17, 2004 What do you rely upon to "keep" you saved? (works, acts of righteousness?) Are you in control of your salvation...whether or not you "keep" in it? And if what you teach is truth.... Then if a person does "walk away" from salvation...or....uses their free will to "jump out of the Father's hand"...... Then do they suffer for eternity in the lake of fire? And if this is the end for them after all things, how can they ever claim being saved? For what were they saved from? How was such a one....un-born again? Where does the scripture use this terminology to describe being un-re-created???????? For surely if scriptures tell us plainly we must be born again, and how to be.... then..... Shouldn't the scriptures tell us how it is undone with the same terminology?? Wouldn't God do so in order for there to be no confusion? Jesus said you must be born again (spiritually). Where does He say you can be un-born again? He doesn't EVER say that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure4salvation Posted January 17, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 520 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/12/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/07/1974 Share Posted January 17, 2004 OK Jake, what is POS? the "P" in Calvinism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure4salvation Posted January 17, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 520 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/12/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/07/1974 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Again, OSAS/UES/POS was not taught until John Calvin and that was only 500 years ago. So for 75% of the Church history, this teaching has not existed. Clearly we can see that it came about because of an unsaved person. John Calvin was a brutal murderer and 1 John 3 clearly says that NO murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Never heard that John Calvin was a murderer? http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ashes.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted January 18, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 265 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/19/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2004 Amen endure4salvation, Jedi4Yahweh and His son. You all save me time in answering my sentiments. Peace, William Yea, it amazes me that even though OSAS/UES/POS was not taught for 1,500 years it is now somehow proven fact. The only place you will find it in the Bible is in Genesis 3:4 where Satan told Eve that sin wouldn't lead to spiritual death, thereby making OSAS/UES/POS a doctrine of demons, as refered to in 1 Peter 4:1. I have seen many verses that have been posted concerning works vs. grace and salvation, and just when you think you have seen it all. You come across a comment such as this. " The only place you will find it in the Bible is in Genesis 3:4 where Satan told Eve that sin wouldn't lead to spiritual death, thereby making OSAS/UES/POS a doctrine of demons, as refered to in 1 Peter 4:1." Totally wrong! There are many verses that substantiate eternal salvation. And most you have read and disregarded , choosing to hold onto your self saving doctrine. God knows those that are His. Not everyone that professes salvation has it. That is clear. If sin, in and of itself will cause someone to lose their salvation, then you should seriously take an in depth look at your life. Do you sin? If you do, then your in big trouble! . Because according to your belief your as lost today as you were before you accepted Christ as your saviour...But wait a minute...How can you call Him a saviour...He only died for your sins...but you have to finish it. Wouldnt that make you your own saviour? And to so blatantly declare OSAS a doctrine of demons...Declaring that those who trust Jesus completely for their salvation are following the doctrines of demons? Not trusting in their self, but in the shed blood of Jesus Christ are following the doctrines of demons.? That is a blasphemous statement! " Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ who died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, to make intercession for us." Rom. 8:33-34. There are many sins a person can commit, not only sins of commission, but sins of omission as well. Maybe you commit the little sins, and every one else commits the bigger sins? For your sake, I hope that you remember every deed you have done, and do not fail to ask forgiveness for them. Or else you will face judgement with sin that is not covered by the blood of Christ. But if it is covered by the blood of Christ, what makes your sin any different than anyone else's that has come to Christ? Did He die for your sins only? Or maybe you believe that He just died for X amount of sins. That He came from His throne to just half do the job. I read where He said " it is finished" ! Finished! His work was completete! I refuse to be a part of a belief system that looks at the Work of Christ on the cross as being incomplete, and disregards His sacrifice as being null and insufficient to provide salvation. Or maybe it's because you have staying power, because you can live a righteous life? I dont think so! We are all sinners. Where do you think the ability to live an obediant life comes from? Yourself? Not hardly. Without Christ you can do nothing! But then again, If you stumble along the way, you can always go back and get saved again, Right? And trample under foot the Son of God afresh, and bring Him to an open shame? . One sin will keep someone out of heaven, and we all are sinners, saved only by the grace of God. If sin is not covered by the blood of Christ, then none of us have any hope of salvation. But be careful what you attribute to demons. I would not want you to speak evil against the Holy Ghost by whom we are sealed to the day of redemption. " In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the Word of Truth, the Gospel of your salavtion: In Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise. " Eph. 1:13. Does God break His promises? Of course not! To do so, would make God a liar! And that isn't so! Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure4salvation Posted January 18, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 520 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/12/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/07/1974 Share Posted January 18, 2004 OK, we will go through just a few parts and then I will start a new thread and will not post in any others concerning OSAS. It will be how the early church and all the way until John Calvin did not have any OSAS-type teachings. " The only place you will find it in the Bible is in Genesis 3:4 where Satan told Eve that sin wouldn't lead to spiritual death, thereby making OSAS/UES/POS a doctrine of demons, as refered to in 1 Peter 4:1." Totally wrong! There are many verses that substantiate eternal salvation. And most you have read and disregarded , choosing to hold onto your self saving doctrine. I fully agree that there are many verses that substantiate eternal salvation. I don't disregard them, I hold them in the utmost respect. God knows those that are His. Not everyone that professes salvation has it. That is clear. If sin, in and of itself will cause someone to lose their salvation, then you should seriously take an in depth look at your life. Do you sin? If you do, then your in big trouble! No, the Bible teaches that those who are in Christ have salvation. No problems here. Because according to your belief your as lost today as you were before you accepted Christ as your saviour. What? Why don't you stop misrepresenting what I believe without knowing and ask me if I believe that? But wait a minute...How can you call Him a saviour...He only died for your sins...but you have to finish it. Wouldnt that make you your own saviour? No, nothing I can do will merit salvation. And to so blatantly declare OSAS a doctrine of demons...Declaring that those who trust Jesus completely for their salvation are following the doctrines of demons? Not trusting in their self, but in the shed blood of Jesus Christ are following the doctrines of demons.? That is a blasphemous statement! A blasphemous statement? Check your motives for making such a statement. Nobody taught OSAS for 1,500 years....how can it be true? " Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ who died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, to make intercession for us." Rom. 8:33-34. I believe that verse, but why do you deny other verses in Romans chapter 8? How about vv. 12-13 where Paul says that if we live according to the sinful nature we will die spiritually? There are many sins a person can commit, not only sins of commission, but sins of omission as well. Maybe you commit the little sins, and every one else commits the bigger sins? For your sake, I hope that you remember every deed you have done, and do not fail to ask forgiveness for them. Or else you will face judgement with sin that is not covered by the blood of Christ. But if it is covered by the blood of Christ, what makes your sin any different than anyone else's that has come to Christ? Why can't we just stick to the Bible and the original church teachings without making accusiatory statements? Why point a finger at me and my walk....I know very well what my shortcomings are without you making me feel even worse than I do for them. Did He die for your sins only? Or maybe you believe that He just died for X amount of sins. He died for my sins, as well as the sins for the WHOLE WORLD. If Christ died for all sins, yet some will not enter heaven, you must admit that there is some sort of human responsibility involved....unless you are a classic 5-point Calvinist. That He came from His throne to just half do the job. I read where He said " it is finished" ! Finished! His work was completete! I refuse to be a part of a belief system that looks at the Work of Christ on the cross as being incomplete, and disregards His sacrifice as being null and insufficient to provide salvation. Christ's work on the cross was not yet finished. It was the atoning sacrifice that was finished---the fulfillment of the Law of Moses. We are no longer under the Law of Moses....but we are under the Law of Christ, which is a higher standard than the Law of Moses. Don't forget that the Resurrection came AFTER the atoning sacrifice..."I am finished" doesn't mean "No more human responsibility." Or maybe it's because you have staying power, because you can live a righteous life? I dont think so! We are all sinners. Where do you think the ability to live an obediant life comes from? Yourself? Not hardly. Your sarcasm is evident. Do you deny that a Christian can live a holy life? Or better, do you deny that living a holy life is required for entrance into heaven? Remember, Hebrews 12:12 and following is talking about living a holy life and in verse 14 the writer says "Without holiness no one will see the Lord." Without Christ you can do nothing! But then again, If you stumble along the way, you can always go back and get saved again, Right? And trample under foot the Son of God afresh, and bring Him to an open shame? It is obvious that you are so indoctrinated with your theology that you don't even understand the other side. Why not ask me if I believe that instead of accusing me of believing something I don't? One sin will keep someone out of heaven, and we all are sinners, saved only by the grace of God. If sin is not covered by the blood of Christ, then none of us have any hope of salvation. But be careful what you attribute to demons. I would not want you to speak evil against the Holy Ghost by whom we are sealed to the day of redemption. WOW! How about toning it down some with the negative tone? Does God break His promises? Of course not! To do so, would make God a liar! And that isn't so! Does God only keep his positive promises............................ ................................... ................................... Or does He keep His negative ones as well? Matthew 10:32,33 Whoever acknowledges Me before men, I will also acknowledge him before My Father in heaven. But whoever disowns Me before men, I will disown him before My Father in heaven. There is one thing you can do to lose your salvation.....disown Jesus. Can one disown Jesus unless they first own him? This is a promise. How about this one? Matthew 6:14-15 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. How clear does Jesus need to speak in order to say that you absolutely MUST forgive other people thier sins against you in order to be forgiven? If you don't forgive others, you won't be forgiven either. Did Jesus ever give a parable about forgiveness? YES!!!! Matthew 18:21-35 Then Peter came to Him and said, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, 'Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, 'Pay me what you owe!' So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?' And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses." Did you see what happened here? God forgave the person, yet he refused to forgive someone else, so God sent such a one to be tortured! You can have your forgiven status revoked by God due to your unforgiving heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure4salvation Posted January 18, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 520 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/12/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/07/1974 Share Posted January 18, 2004 OK, sorry for the abrasivness. But let us look real quick at a few things: 1. There was no UES before the fall: Genesis 2:17 (KJV) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Adam & Eve both disobeyed a direct command of God and died, but it could not have been just a physical death, becasuse Adam lived 930 more years. This was a spiritual death by someone who was an innocent child of God, thus no UES. 2. There was no UES in the OT: Deuteronomy 31:16-18 (NIV) And the LORD said to Moses: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted January 18, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2004 OK, sorry for the abrasivness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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