A Missionary Posted May 15, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 19 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/12/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/11/1964 Share Posted May 15, 2007 (edited) The sad part will be on the day when all those, who were so sure there was no God, find themselves speechless before the throne. All we can do is pray and proclaim. Edited May 15, 2007 by A Missionary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Hill Posted May 15, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 163 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/27/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/05/1988 Share Posted May 15, 2007 To say there is no God would mean this world would be destroyed right now. Without love this world wouldn't exist very long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted May 16, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.10 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 16, 2007 The sad part will be on the day when all those, who were so sure there was no God, find themselves speechless before the throne. All we can do is pray and proclaim. That is the most frightening scenario I can imagine, Missionary. I pray fervently that these people will come to the Truth before it's too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AV1611_USER Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 One thing that really bothers me is when people say "God exists because the facts point to His existence". The atheist could turn that around and say that facts disprove God. If you say "God is the most probable expanation of everything" then you're also saying, "There is a possibility that He isn't". The reason why we are supposed to believe in Him is because He exists. In fact, His name (YHWH) literally means "I Am". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
systemstrike_7 Posted May 17, 2007 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 540 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/04/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/07/1987 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Yes, but to the unbeliever this argument will not suffice. If someone is an atheist in today's society, it is most likely because he/she finds "scientific ground" to believe what he/she does. For them to have any reason to believe, they must be given a good argument to. Foundation is everything. If someone has no foundation in their beliefs, their beliefs will inevitably fall. Now, once a Christian accepts Christ as his Foundation, the Foundation of Christ will never fail. But to get anywhere, you must climb... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Missionary Posted May 17, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 19 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/12/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/11/1964 Share Posted May 17, 2007 For them to have any reason to believe, they must be given a good argument to. Actually, the only argument that will work is the evidence that God has provided mankind in His Creation, His Son, His Word, and His Church. Man will left without excuse before the throne. As for us, as Christians, trying to make a "logical argument" for the existence of God, we will not win that debate. We cannot convince, coerce, win a debate, forcibly draw a commitment, or otherwise make someone have faith in Jesus Christ. It's impossible. Salvation comes by grace, by the power of God's word, and the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit working together in concert, which leads a person by faith to trust Christ as Savior. We can't make it happen through logical reasoning, arguments, or scientific evidence. This is where the lid on the "box" of philosophy and the scientific method closes. It refuses to allow anything that can't be observed and measured in a controlled environment. This box excludes God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted May 17, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 17, 2007 "...but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;" 1 Peter 3:15 The key words in here are "defense" and "account." Defense (apologia) is akin to one using logical arguments and physical evidence. Account (logos) refers to a logical belief, a belief based upon evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
systemstrike_7 Posted May 17, 2007 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 540 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/04/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/07/1987 Share Posted May 17, 2007 For them to have any reason to believe, they must be given a good argument to. Actually, the only argument that will work is the evidence that God has provided mankind in His Creation, His Son, His Word, and His Church. Man will left without excuse before the throne. As for us, as Christians, trying to make a "logical argument" for the existence of God, we will not win that debate. We cannot convince, coerce, win a debate, forcibly draw a commitment, or otherwise make someone have faith in Jesus Christ. It's impossible. Salvation comes by grace, by the power of God's word, and the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit working together in concert, which leads a person by faith to trust Christ as Savior. We can't make it happen through logical reasoning, arguments, or scientific evidence. This is where the lid on the "box" of philosophy and the scientific method closes. It refuses to allow anything that can't be observed and measured in a controlled environment. This box excludes God. I understand and completely agree with everything you just said. You need to read my post more carefully. I said someone needs to have a good "foundation" for their beliefs. If they have no reason to believe that God can exist, then they will have a very difficult time in accepting God's salvation. I believe that their are some convincing arguments for God's existence. If it weren't logical to believe in God, I certainly wouldn't. I'm a skeptic by nature, and I needed some evidence. Well, God gave me the evidence, and it allowed me to open my heart to Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
systemstrike_7 Posted May 18, 2007 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 540 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/04/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/07/1987 Share Posted May 18, 2007 "...but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;" 1 Peter 3:15 The key words in here are "defense" and "account." Defense (apologia) is akin to one using logical arguments and physical evidence. Account (logos) refers to a logical belief, a belief based upon evidence. Freakin' bingo... I knew there was scripture to back up my claim, I just couldn't remember where it was... Thank you AK... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Missionary Posted May 18, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 19 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/12/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/11/1964 Share Posted May 18, 2007 I understand and completely agree with everything you just said. You need to read my post more carefully. I said someone needs to have a good "foundation" for their beliefs. If they have no reason to believe that God can exist, then they will have a very difficult time in accepting God's salvation. I believe that their are some convincing arguments for God's existence. If it weren't logical to believe in God, I certainly wouldn't. I'm a skeptic by nature, and I needed some evidence. Well, God gave me the evidence, and it allowed me to open my heart to Him. I wasn't disagreeing, brother... I totally agree there is good evidence and foundation is crucial. What I was commenting on pertains to the type of folks I've been debating for years on atheist and philosophy slanted boards. Believe me, these guys are clamped down tighter than a toddler and his "binkey". And while I agree with scripture on having a ready defense to give an account, the rulebook they use for debate excludes the spiritual, supernatural, and metaphysical. I'm certain it's intentional without them even being aware. The scripture does say that the lost have been blinded. My only point was that removing the blindness is a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit triggered by the power of God's word. It's not a case I can make based entirely on intellectualism. I think where logic can play a part is when the Spirit is at work in a person and they begin to see things from God's POV. For example, if I asked you, now that you're born again, how differently you see things as a believer, you would obviously find the truth of scripture to be logical whereas at one time it appeared to be illogical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts