AnotherTraveler Posted May 19, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 80 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,595 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 19, 2007 "If the Trinity is not true, then Jesus is not who He claimed to be." (Basic Theology-Charles Ryrie). Have you ever read the doctrine of the trinity written first in 325 AD (I believe)? The bible is true, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are certainly scriptural, but the summary of what men believe they understand (the trinity doctrine) is NOT scripture, and to hold Jesus to only be who He claimed to be based on a doctrine penned 325 (or so) years later is beyond accurate, in my opinion. Why not agree with scripture? Great is the mystery of godliness. Do I understand the mystery that the godhead is? Maybe like a two year old understands where milk comes from.... Daddy tells his 2 year old that milk comes from a cow. The toddler says NO. Why? The toddler went with mom to the store a few times, and milk definately comes from the store. What is daddy trying to pull anyway? Concerning our understanding of the godhead, we have a disadvantage to the toddler, at least the toddler has SEEN where milk comes from. Which of us has seen God at any time? I also love to search the Word of God, and study is good, but some of our conclusions might not always be right. Praise the Lord for grace and mercy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted May 19, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 19, 2007 I also love to search the Word of God, and study is good, but some of our conclusions might not always be right. Praise the Lord for grace and mercy! Shalom AT, Yes, and praise G-d that He can direct a sincere and open heart as people seek Him. There is nothing wrong with trying to learn and understand what we can about G-d, the Tri-Unity of G-d and what we k now from the Scriptures. I don't agree that since we can't understand it all that we shouldn't seek to know as much as we can! G-d is able to lead us when we go off the path. We should not be afraid to search and study the Scriptures and try to learn as much as we are able about G-d and to seek His face. That IS agreeing with the Scriptures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methinkshe Posted May 28, 2007 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 679 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/02/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 28, 2007 I noticed discussion in the thread on Jesus' divinity as expressed in his statement the before Moses was "I am" that some believers do not accept the belief in the Trinity as one being but view it as three separate beings or manifestations of God. I am aware that the LDS and JW hold the latter view. Are there other churchs (i'm particularly interested in any "mainstream" protestants) that do not believe in the concept of the Trinity as one God? The Athanasian Creed offers probably the most comprehensive understanding of the Trinity ever written and is one of the Confessions of faith, along with the Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed, used by the Reformed (Protestant) faith. It is an article of the Reformed (Protestant) faith that the trinity is one God, therefore one would not expect to find anyone claiming to adhere to the Reformed faith believing otherwise. The Athanasian Creed Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic* faith. Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally. Now this is the catholic* faith: That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal. What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated. The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, the Holy Spirit is eternal. And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being. So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings; there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being. Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings; there is but one almighty being. Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Yet there are not three gods; there is but one God. Thus the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord. Yet there are not three lords; there is but one Lord. Just as Christian truth compels us to confess each person individually as both God and Lord, so catholic* religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords. The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son. Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons; there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits. Nothing in this trinity is before or after, nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other. So in everything, as was said earlier, we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity. Anyone then who desires to be saved should think thus about the trinity. But it is necessary for eternal salvation that one also believe in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully. Now this is the true faith: That we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and human, equally. He is God from the essence of the Father, begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity. Although he is God and human, yet Christ is not two, but one. He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself. He is one, certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person. For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human. He suffered for our salvation; he descended to hell; he arose from the dead; he ascended to heaven; he is seated at the Father's right hand; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will arise bodily and give an accounting of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire. This is the catholic* faith: one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully. *"catholic" meaning "universal" not Roman Catholic. Blessing in Jesus, Ruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metropolitan Posted May 28, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 84 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/09/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/17/1975 Share Posted May 28, 2007 I can understand why the early church fathers were so concerned about the doctrine of trinity, as it is not such an easy doctrine to understand...Therefore I have to rely on church interpretations and the Nicene creed(adopted in the first first Ecumenical council of 325 , revised in the second council of 381) still holds good for me "We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth...." "And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father ..." "And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son..." 3 distinct personalities! The only reason why some Christians who confirms to the sola scriptura doctrine, rejects this creed , is because it is not found as it is in the Bible...But to the majority of modern Christians inlcuding me, the Nicene Creed is regarded as the quintessential expression of the Christian faith. PS: The LDS and JW are among the ones who reject this doctrine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneV Posted May 29, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 720 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/23/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/20/1947 Share Posted May 29, 2007 I can understand why the early church fathers were so concerned about the doctrine of trinity, as it is not such an easy doctrine to understand...Therefore I have to rely on church interpretations and the Nicene creed(adopted in the first first Ecumenical council of 325 , revised in the second council of 381) still holds good for me "We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth...." "And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father ..." "And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son..." 3 distinct personalities! The only reason why some Christians who confirms to the sola scriptura doctrine, rejects this creed , is because it is not found as it is in the Bible...But to the majority of modern Christians inlcuding me, the Nicene Creed is regarded as the quintessential expression of the Christian faith. I think it was Tertullian who coined the term "Trinity" and I believe the council of Nicea only firmed up the wording in order to combat the teachings of Marcion, Montanus and others insofar as the heresies of Arianism and Gnosticism. These heretical teachings abounded long before Nicea between 100 & 200 AD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherTraveler Posted May 30, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 80 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,595 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 30, 2007 The only reason why some Christians who confirms to the sola scriptura doctrine, rejects this creed , is because it is not found as it is in the Bible...But to the majority of modern Christians inlcuding me, the Nicene Creed is regarded as the quintessential expression of the Christian faith. I beg to differ. Any doctrine not found in the bible (which you acknowledge this one is not found in the bible) is NOT the quintessential expression of the Christian faith. If the Apostles never knew of such a doctrine, if Jesus never taught such a doctrine, and if the doctrine is not found in the scriptures, it is a later addition (as history validates, and so does your post), so how could such a late addition be anything other than men's ideas expressed in a creed? The real reason why any Christian must confirm the sola scriptura doctrine should be because the scriptures are the Word of God, and all other words, no matter how well expressed, no matter how much I agree with them or not, still, all other words are not the scriptures. The "modern Christian" is not an improvement, in my opinion, over the old time ones that held the scriptures tightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherTraveler Posted May 31, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 80 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,595 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metropolitan Posted June 1, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 84 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/09/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/17/1975 Share Posted June 1, 2007 (edited) The only reason why some Christians who confirms to the sola scriptura doctrine, rejects this creed , is because it is not found as it is in the Bible...But to the majority of modern Christians inlcuding me, the Nicene Creed is regarded as the quintessential expression of the Christian faith. I beg to differ. Any doctrine not found in the bible (which you acknowledge this one is not found in the bible) is NOT the quintessential expression of the Christian faith. If the Apostles never knew of such a doctrine, if Jesus never taught such a doctrine, and if the doctrine is not found in the scriptures, it is a later addition (as history validates, and so does your post), so how could such a late addition be anything other than men's ideas expressed in a creed? The real reason why any Christian must confirm the sola scriptura doctrine should be because the scriptures are the Word of God, and all other words, no matter how well expressed, no matter how much I agree with them or not, still, all other words are not the scriptures. The "modern Christian" is not an improvement, in my opinion, over the old time ones that held the scriptures tightly. what i meant is the 'the nicene creed' in its entirety or a continous format ...You cant expect every doctrine to be present in the bible as clear as the "lords prayer"..else we would never had a theological college or a church seminary or even an ecumenical council for that matter.. Anyways, I would like to know which aspect of the nicene creed is not found in the bible, according to you ? Edited June 1, 2007 by Metropolitan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sis_pat Posted June 12, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 4 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/05/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/11/1973 Share Posted June 12, 2007 There are 3 distinct persons and the being of each person is equl to the whole being of God. The trinity form of being is far beyond our ability to comprehend because there is no comparison on our planet, that is why it cannot be made intelligible. It is this that makes HIm God. Higher than all heights and fathomless in greatness God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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