Did anyone see the debate on TV last night?

[exrockstar]

What matters more here, our opinion or G-d's Word?

We depend on God's spritual gift's if we want to reach outside of our normal selves.

this is God's word

1 Corinthians 12

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

1 Corinthians 14:12 (King James Version)

so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

was the debate really for the edification of the Church?

Because if it's not they were on there on a limb. Just because they were sitting in a Church did not

mean the Church was there.

As i said though. it's done and we'll just see what's next.

[Vickilynn]

What matters more here, our opinion or G-d's Word?

We depend on God's spritual gift's if we want to reach outside of our normal selves.

this is God's word

Shalom Ex,

No, the question is, in context, what matters more here, OUR opinion or G-d's Word?

G-d's Word says we ALL are qualified to represent and defend the Gospel.

If we stand with G-d's Word, we will not see posts saying that these 2 men should not have been there representing and defending G-d's Word, for this is EACH of our calling.

Apologetics is not a spiritial gift or an office. It is the responsibility of ALL Believers.

was the debate really for the edification of the Church?

You'll have to ask G-d that since He is the only One who can truly answer.

I believe that everytime the Word of G-d is lifted up, according to the Scriptures, it's accomplishes G-d's purposes.

Because if it's not they were on there on a limb. Just because they were sitting in a Church did not

mean the Church was there.

Umm, I don't get you. Again, this is judging their heart motive which we are not qualified to do. There are things we must trust G-d for. The church was there if the Christians were there to glorify G-d. Simple as that!

[FighterforJC]

Comfort and Cameron were on the show because Ray challenged the atheists to a debate. The founders of the blasphemy challenge were defiantly mocking God and Comfort choose to confront them on it and also use it as a witnessing opportunity.

People may complain ... but at least someone did something.

Shalom Smiles,

Amen and amen!! This is the point! At least they DID something! they got out there and stood up for Jesus and on the foundation of the Word.

I disagree that someone "more qualified" should have been there... we are each qualified by the Holy Spirit to speak His truth from the Word! We just need to be willing to step out and DO IT!

Listen, this is the truth:

G-d does not need our ABILITY

But G-d desires our AVAILABILITY!!!

Amen. Apologetics has its place, but ultimately, it is God's Word that matters. It does not return void. I didn't see the debate, but judging from the posts on this board, it wasn't very good. We don't know what God is doing "behind the scenes." God personally chose each and everyone of us as individuals, and He's done so in different ways. That debate might've only produced one converted soul, but heaven is rejoicing nonetheless. It doesn't matter what the polls say about the debate afterwards. Every single soul matters to God. I hope that none of us was hoping that the debate would somehow "vindicate" Christians by teaching those darn atheists "a thing or two" about science and God, and proving on national TV that Christians are pretty smart after all. God always chooses the foolish things to confound the wise. We will get ours when Christ returns in what will be the BIGGEST "I told you so" story ever told.

[Vickilynn]

Shalom WhySoBlind,

Perhaps you wish to go down the "fool's" road, but I do not.

The topic of this thread is about the debate.

And for the record, you are very good at making false assumptions and going down rabbit trails borne of those false assumptions which are NEVER part of an intelligent discussion, which you are so fond of proclaiming you know all about.

You have issue with the Word and what it says concerning calling your brother a fool. I added no commentary. I suggest you take it up with G-d, not me. It could be the conviction of the Holy Spirit that you are fighting against and do not even realize it.

Shalom.

[Vickilynn]

Amen. Apologetics has its place, but ultimately, it is God's Word that matters. It does not return void. I didn't see the debate, but judging from the posts on this board, it wasn't very good. We don't know what God is doing "behind the scenes." God personally chose each and everyone of us as individuals, and He's done so in different ways. That debate might've only produced one converted soul, but heaven is rejoicing nonetheless. It doesn't matter what the polls say about the debate afterwards. Every single soul matters to God. I hope that none of us was hoping that the debate would somehow "vindicate" Christians by teaching those darn atheists "a thing or two" about science and God, and proving on national TV that Christians are pretty smart after all. God always chooses the foolish things to confound the wise. We will get ours when Christ returns in what will be the BIGGEST "I told you so" story ever told.

Shalom Fighter,

Yes, yes, yes!! Exactly! You got it!

[Vickilynn]

I will say right up front that I have not read all of this thread. I got through five pages, and it seemed like a lot of nitpicking at what the Bible said. Maybe there were things after that I should have read. I don't know.

But I do want to post something here. It amazed me that people actually think one should not stand up for God. Blows my mind. Totally. Do you know if these gentlemen asked God His opinion on whether they should do this or not? Could there be someone who watched this broadcast and turned to Christ b/c of it? Is God THAT limited that He could not use an ignorant to proclaim His Gospel to a lost and dying world?

If you rely on man's wisdom, then no, they shouldn't have done it. If, however, you're relying on God and HIS power and HIS knowledge and HIS control, then let well enough alone. If it was a mistake for them to do this, God will handle it. But you don't know whether it was or not. And unless you're close to Kirk Camron and Ray Comfort and all the people who watched the broadcast, you cannot know the long-term results of this.

Again, I say that to stand up and say someone is wrong for proclaiming belief and proof of our God, is something I cannot even imagine. If God tells me to speak, whether I (or anyone else) thinks I'm qualified or not, I'm going to do it. Point fingers at me if you'd like, but I'd rather obey God than listen to the "opinions" of my fellow fallen brethren.

Shalom,

Amen and amen.

I've been saying this for every page! I'm glad you said it as well. It is Scriptural. Amen.

[Guest]

If we do not need our abilities, then where do they come from?

Blessing Brother

Witness Words.....

The Spirit

"Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts." Zechariah 4:6

Martyrdom - Who's Word.....

"But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak." Matthew 10:19

The Written Word - Who's Word.....

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13

The Spoken Word - Who's Word.....

"But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth." 1 Corinthians 14:24-25

If God does not need to use our abilities, why did He give them to us?

Have faith Dear Brother, God can overcome!

Who

"When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:25-26

The Called

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28

The Wise

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen." Romans 11:33-36

The Humble

"Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;" Colossians 3:12

Yeap!

The LORD is working on me too!

Keep On Keeping On!

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe

[Axxman]

No, no. On the contrary, your previous post proved my point about chrisitans arguing 1 +1 = 3 and not even realizing it. If you had done some research in the Bible itself, you'd realize your use of that verse was bogus since the other PREACHERS in the Bible used the term "fool" quite often, and Jesus called people fools to their faces.

So most of the christians who debate with atheists end up arguing from the point of number 1 or 2 above. They don't know what they are talking about, and their arguments are just as pathetic as someone like me trying to step on a tennis court and challenge Federer. He'd make mince meat of me in about 15 minutes for an entire match, and that is EXACTLY what atheists do with some of you, and you don't even realize it.

What if God says, "1+1=3"??? What then? Are you going to argue that too? God says, "I created the earth and everything in it." It seems kinda silly to try and fit that into the "scientific box." Whenever a Christian says "Goddidit" it is an eternal truth.

What C&C did was put Christianity on display. Unwavering faith and confidence in God. Does it really matter what 99% of the atheists think about their "unreasonable" arguments? I can tell you now that I've won EVERY debate I've ever had with an atheist...because I speak from a truth that they cannot even understand or comprehend...and I'm no scientist...lol. I feel sad for them and hope that someday the Holy Spirit gives them understanding, but that doesn't change my argument, or perception.

We don't change our message...or dumb it down for the lost. We preach the Gospel and message of Christ and pray that our audience is given understanding. Every Christian on this board should have been praying during that debate that God would open eyes, ears and hearts to understanding...instead it seems we had some counter-operatives in our midst worrying about their own appearances, and lacking a faith that God is in control.

[Vickilynn]

Nobody is saying its wrong to "stand up for God", what we are saying is that it is wrong for people who obviously don't understand the subject matter to enter a debate about it.

As to the "Holy Spirit told me to do it" claim, so what?

Christians use that line WAY too much. I know of a devil worshipping cult that claimed the "Holy Spirit" told them to do it, raped kids in the name of Jesus, they DID!

Doesn't make them right, and doesn't mean God had anything to do with them. Anybody can make any claim. Its easy to make claims, but in the end, evidence is what matters.

I could claim the earth came from a box of green jell-o, doesn't mean its true.

However, with the non-logic some christians have, they have no way of proving my claim wrong.

Shalom WSB,

Oh my, you are really funny.

Here you are touting "intelligent" debate over G-dly debate and you say things like this? C'mon!

There are some things you should know about the Holy Spirit.

#1. The Holy Spirit can and does lead G-d's children, those who listen for His voice and are willing to walk in obedience.

#2. The Holy Spirit will NEVER EVER lead someone to do or say anything contrary to the Word of G-d. So, your way-out-there examples have nothing to do with the truth.

#3. This thread is about the debate. The Holy Spirit is able to use anyone who is willing to be used, for G-d's glory, EVEN Kirk and Ray.

#4. The Holy Spirit is the only One who can change hearts, not men. Not even men who can argue better than anyone else.

#5. The Holy Spirit and G-d's Word are better than logic any day.

For the record, ANY Born-again Christian knows the subject matter when it comes to G-d. They only need to ask Him. Just read your Bible, you'll see.

[Kabowd]

You can trust in man's abilities. I choose to trust in G-d's power.

Talk about being uqualified for debate. It's quite easy to tear down your opponent's argument when you weaken it or re-define it into something that it never was (i.e. create a strawman). NONE of us have stated that we "trust in man's abilities" or that human abilities are more important than God's power. If you're going to counter what we're saying, please do a more adequate job than trying to misrepresent what we've stated.

Your assertions that Comfort and Cameron were not qualified to defend the Gospel is blown apart by the example of Peter. Apply these same standards to them as you did to Peter and John and you will see that to judge C&C any other way is hypocritical and not Scriptural. BTW, your assumption is incorrect, I wasn't alluding to Peter as being uneducated.

Peter embodies my point and you affirmed it once again.

Clearly you did not read my post regarding Peter and/or do not understand who he was. He was neither unskilled, nor unprepared when he debated the Greek Christians in 1 Peter 5:12. Neither was he advocating to "simply rely on the Holy Spirit" when he commanded that we ALL believers have a ready defense in 1 Peter 3:14-15. Perhaps you are confused about which disciple you're trying to use as an example? Regardless, Peter is a poor choice if you're trying to advocate that one need not be prepared for debate.

Amen! Scripture is chock full of demonstrations of God using weak, even ill-prepared people! All so God's power will be clearly and unmistakeably seen.

1 Corinthians 1:27...

Instead, God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful.

Yay, another misapplied Scripture! But I would expect nothing less, based on the arguments being presented in here thus far..lol. In proper context, Paul knew that in Corinth they were heavily influenced by what were known as orators. The Greek rehtoricians would stand outside in public and impress people with their speaking abilities, yet their speeches lacked content. They were known for being able to move and persuade a crowd with colorful words and impressive oratory skills alone. Thus, what we see Paul doing (especially in 1 Corinthians 1 and 2) is drawing a distinction between Greek rhetoric (which the church at Corinth was quite familiar with) and the gospel. Here is what JP Moreland (a noted apologist has to say about these verses):

"Paul is most likely contrasting himself with Greek rhetoricians. If so, then Paul is arguing against evangelists who spend all of their time working on their speaking techniques yet fail to address the minds of unbelievers in their gospel presentations! Paul could also be making the claim that the content of the gospel cannot be deduced by pure reason from some set of first principles. No one could start off with an abstract concept of a first mover and deduce that a crucifixion would happen from this information alone. Thus, the gospel could never have been discovered by pure deductive reason from self-evident first principles, but had to be revealed by the biblical God who acts in history. Paul was insistent that the intellect could assess whether or not there was sufficient evidence to judge that God had so acted (1 Cor. 15)."

Also, what you are asserting (by using this verse in this context) is that believers are justified (even called!) to be ignorant, weak and unprepared. This is one of the most unbiblical suggestions I've seen perpetuated on this board. Do you understand that we are called to PURSUE wisdom, knowledge and understanding? These verses you are trying to use do NOT give believers an excuse to be stupid and lazy...which is how you're using them. Does God use people who are willing? Yes. Does God use people in spite of their abilities? Yes. But that does not excuse committed believers from obeying the command to study to show theirselves approved, to learn to rightly divide the word of truth and be PREPARED to offer a ready defense of the gospel. Going into a boxing match with a professional fighter without ever having prepared, exercised, or thrown punches with a worthy opponent first would be foolish. It's asking to get your rear end demolished. And if you're advocating that we can be intellectually lazy and then pretend that God is going to come to the rescue to cover our foolishness and lack of obedience, then you're sorely mistaken. That is testing God, not trusting Him. True faith in God is obedience to His word, walking in submission, and making the effort to study hard. It's pursuing wisdom like a precious jewel in order to understand what His word says is true and being able to defend it. It's not having some che sira sira attitude towards the studying of His Word and then hoping He shows up to cover our disobedience.

The Body of Messiah (Born-again Believers) is called to defend the Gospel and we are to trust that G-d will enable us to do so when called upon.

Again, it is not God's responsibility to make us appear more intelligent and prepared than we are. He doesn't supernaturally impart wisdom via divine revelation. On the contrary, we are COMMANDED to study, pursue wisdom, renew our minds, etc...all for God's glory. He "enables" us by giving us the mind of Christ, made in His own image, with the ability to comprehend what he's conveying. He doesn't enable us by dropping knowledge into our minds like software onto a computer.

We can NEVER, EVER present or defend the Gospel in such a way as to change a heart. Only the Holy Spirit can.

That's not the point, but good job at another strawman

The point is that we are commanded to study, to be prepared, to use our intellect for God's glory. We are commanded to have a "ready defense". Have you missed that? Did you forget that Christ said the greatest commanded is to love God with all of our hearts, souls AND minds??? The point is not to change a heart, because you are correct, that is the Holy Spirit's job. The point is to walk in obedience, which means presenting the gospel and defending it with skill, wisdom and truth to the best of our ability.

Whom do we trust more, man's ability, or G-d's?

Again, not the question. No one is "trusting" in man's ability. We're asserting that it is SCRIPTURAL to walk in obedience, and that we are COMMANDED to be PREPARED to know what we're talking about.

G-d's Word says we ALL are qualified to represent and defend the Gospel.

Where? This is a load of donkey-doo. If we are all automatically qualified, then why are we commanded to pursue knowledge, wisdom and understanding? Why are we commanded to study and be prepared? Why are we commanded to use our minds and to grow to love the Lord with all of our minds? If it's automatically imparted, why the commands?

Basically, people like yourself and FA are advocating a lazy faith, as if we can offer God a half-butt effort and He's supposed to not only be thrilled we're "willing" but He's also somehow responsible to smooth everything over and use our stupidity. Which is ridiculous. God expects our best. Furthermore, God deserves our best. He deserves our best effort, He deserves the best of everything. So to continually assert that we can all be happily ignorant, unprepared, and still be obedient followers of God that He will use is a bunch of b-o-l-o-g-n-a.