Original Sin

[Thaddaeus]

dugmando,

How can you say sin does not cause men to die your own scripture says the wages of sin is death?

And that is exactly what I stated. I also stated the obvious. Can you die more than once?

Now, lets do this once again and maybe I can clarify it, rather than drag the other page over here.

Adam sinned, and the commandment for his sin was death. A physical death. Man became mortal. That mortality was passed on to all men as hereditary, not the sin. Now, if man is dead, that is possesses a human nature that is mortal and dying, can you actually die physically again? and when and how?

After Adam the only death that we create for ourselves is a spiritual death, or separation from God because of sin. Thus those wages is also death, but spiritual. Death means separation. In both cases separation is involved so don't be confused by the word.

As far as the reality of it, we will not suffer permanent consequences of our physical death either because Christ redeemed that nature, made it eternal and incorruptible. the ONLY death that man will suffer are those that don't believe and suffer eternal separation (death) from God

The wages, the fruit of, the result of, the payment for sin is death, IT CAUSED JESUS TO HAVE TO DIE.

yes, that is the sacrifice or atonment of our sins. But that atonment did dnot solve the death problem of man. Blood requires death but it does not require resurrection. However, overcoming death, the condemnation of Adam also required a death, but it of necessity required the resurrection. Without the Resurrection, solving the physical death problem of man, all the atonement in the world, including that of Christ would not give mankind life, eternity, immortality. That is the meaning of I Cor 15 and the importance of the Resurrection and the solving of man's primary problem.

All men must die naturally but men who die in sin die destined for hell.

Actually, all men must die unnaturally. Death is not a natural thing for mankind. We were created to be eternal, not die. But, yes, we do die, but that death, the physical death is not due to anything we did ourselves. That is the consequence of the judgement upon Adam. Christ (God) did not choose to give mankind immortality directly upon His resurrection. He permitted us to remain in our sinful state, in a sinnful world and is using it to test man's freedom to be willing, desireous, to be in union with HIM. Physical death also rids mankind of his flesh, where sin originates. He calls all men to repentance. The Holy Spirit works upon all men to do that work of repentance. And when we do not desire Him, reject Him, then we have of our own free will decided that we will spend an eternity apart from Him as well.

Two different deaths, and two different means but does not change that the wages of sin is death.

Christs death on the Cross does not stop you from dying it only determines where you end up, if you have accepted Him or not.

It actually corrects one death, the physical by the resurrection. It corrected the second by atonment. If we seek repentance and forgiveness then the believer will not be condemned to that spiritual death. For the believer, Christ overcame both deaths. It is just that the unbeliever recieves immortality as well, but he chose death, spiritual.

When you die you don't just return to dust and thats it your body does.

Your soul is going somewhere regardless.

Quite contrary. But the answer lies in the theology of understanding creation and the fall with redemption. It must all align or it all falls.

Man was created with body and soul and enlivened by the breath of God, sometimes referred to man's spirit.

But death, we know by defintion is a separation of body and soul. Man does not exist without both. Death is the annihilation of the human being as he was created to be. Paul says that the perfect human is body and soul in union with God. That is the definition of a believer and also our existance in heaven.

When Adam sinned, God had already warned that death would be the result. Dust to dust. Man would cease to exist. But for mankind that did not last very long. At the exit God promised a Messiah that would come to correct the grave mistake Adam made by plunging the universe into death. At that moment God worked with mankind, was joined with mankind, that is some, by faith, all through the OT. OT saints looked for the promise Messiah. God knew how He was going to save man. Thus in the OT we have souls being described as being in Hades. Christ decended into Hades to take captive those held captive. the souls of saints like Moses, David, Abraham etc. It was looking to the promise. Thus we know from scripture that the soul remained but separated from the flesh which was meant to decay and spring forth incorruptible. After Christ we know souls go to either heaven or hell, but they are not yet whole since the resurrection has not occured.

If Christ had not come, the universe is in the thros of death and corruption and ending of whatever was alive. It would contiue in this state forever.

Without Christ's redemptive Work on the Cross, there is no need for either heaven or hell. It is only a dying, decaying, corrupt earth that will continue in cycle. You would have lived but a short time and that is the end. dust to dust.

Very simple, all this came about because of Adam's fall, had he not fallen we would not know sin but he did and we do and that is why we need the Second ManAdam- Jesus Christ

Well, you arrive at the same conclusion, Christ is the correction of the fall. It puts mankind back into the possibility of free relationship with God, which Adam had before the fall. That was the big picture of God in His creation, and He will still accomplish that end. Man freely living in Him or freely rejecting Him. Death is still the wages of sin.

Edited June 4, 2007 by Thaddaeus

[Diolectic]

Sin is not to be had, but to be done.

"If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it." (Gen. 4:7)

This is a very clear indication that Cain's sin indwelt him, waiting for him, even desiring him to commit evil. This is further evidenced by Paul's statements in Romans 7:8-11

In the Hebrew language, according to Strongs, in Gen. 4:7, sin is Chatta'ah. It literally means "sin. the condition of sin. It is the noun form of Chata', that is, "To sin. To miss the way, go wrong, incur guilt, forfeit..."

So God's telling Cain that "sin crouches at the door" meant that sin was a thing waiting to seize the opportunity to cause Cain to sin (verb). What was it that caused Cain to conceive murder in his heart? It was nothing less than his anger and jealousy of his brother. Yet another indication of sin.

Where did you get that definition of sin as a "condition"?

Strongs Hebrew #2403

chaṭṭâ'âh chaṭṭâ'th

khat-taw-aw', khat-tawth'

From H2398; an offence (sometimes habitual sinfulness), and its penalty, occasion, sacrifice, or expiation; also (concretely) an offender: - punishment (of sin), purifying (-fication for sin), sin (-ner, offering).

Is there any other verses that tell us what sin is beside these?

Prov 24:9 The thought of foolishness is sin:

Romans 14:23b whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Faith in Christ.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin:

1John 3:4b sin is the transgression of the law. The Law shows us the character of Christ.

To make sin any other thing than an action is not correct.

One may personify an action, or an attitude but it is not to be taken litraly as an entity.

Paul never rebelled against the Law!

You have read Romans 7, I seen you post it.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Rom 7:15-16 :15 For what I work out, I do not know. For what I do not will, this I do. But what I hate, this I do.

:16 But if I do what I do not will, I agree with the Law, that it is good.

In other words:

8 My inclination against the requirements took advantage of that specific requirement, in that I found away to rebel, and it produced in me all kinds of evil desires.

15 I don't understand what I'm doing. I habitually don't do what I prefer to do, because I habitually do what I hate

16 But if I do what I don't prefer, I am actually agreeing with the requirements that they are good.

Selfishness in and of itself certainly is a cause of offenses (sins). Yet it remains the result of something deeper, a nature which fuels it:

As I've shown you, that "something deeper" is not knowing Christ. Why and how do you reject this?

Jesus is the Law, how would anyone abide by the Law if one does not know it? If one does not know the law, one will break it.

If one does not love the law, one will love his own way instead(selfishness).

Envy is synonymous with jealousy, which is fueled by the selfish desire for someone else's status, things, etc. It is in violation of the commandment, hence sin (verb), and also because of sin (noun).

Sin can not be the cause of it's self, that is what you just said.

The human nature includes sin: sin in the flesh (Rom. 8:3)

Rom 8:3 For the Law being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,

sinful flesh = Flesh with the ability to sin

Human = human nature; humans have sin, commit sins, and are called sinners.

That is where you are messing up. No one "has sin" as sin being a nature.

One may have wrong desires that are sinful. If I have sin, it is my sympathy for doing the acts of sin. I used to have sin which was smoking pot.

Show me Scripture where on "has sin"

According to your logic a person is a sinner because he sins, not because he has the nature of sin within him.

Duh.

If you bark like a dog does that make you a dog?

No, makes you a barker.

If you stand as still as you can and attempt to grow leaves from your arms, will you become a tree?

No, makes you a lunatic.

But I get what you mean, it would make you an actor.

A dog barks because that is all he can do. A man that does not know Christ, sin is all he can do.

How is it that if a man does not know Christ that his narue is something eles that what it is after he knows Christ.

[dugmando]

Thaddeus,

I think if you look at OP question the point was whether original sin is an inherent sinful condition or not?

I think what I am trying to say is that it is indeed inherent because of adam's actions,

Not adam's sin itself but the result of adam's sin.

Adam's action brought upon mankind two things 1. the curse of sin and the need for a Savior and 2. death.

Our experiencing these things we can fully and unequivocally accredit to him and his actions in the Garden of Eden.

Dug

[firehill]

Thaddeus,

I think if you look at OP question the point was whether original sin is an inherent sinful condition or not?

Original sin is not an inherent sinful condition. Question, from where did you hear that is was?

I think what I am trying to say is that it is indeed inherent because of adam's actions,

It is inherent? Why? Does the bible say so?

Not adam's sin itself but the result of adam's sin.

You mean, death which was the ultimate result of Adam's sin. To inherit death is not to inherit original sin.

Adam's action brought upon mankind two things 1. the curse of sin

Where did God curse man with sin and for that matter where did God curse man with anything? Who've you been listening to?

and the need for a Savior and 2. death.

Our experiencing these things we can fully and unequivocally accredit to him and his actions in the Garden of Eden.

Dug

Our experiencing what things?

[Thaddaeus]

dugmando,

I think if you look at OP question the point was whether original sin is an inherent sinful condition or not?

Yes, I know. I think it has been clearly shown that it is not. Not in any sense. it is a misnomer. It only refers to a single act which caused the condemnation which is inherent in man, death.

But you are right it required a Divine Grace to heal mankind. Jesus Christ the Savior of the world.

[DarkNebulaWelder]

Ovedya,

If we are not born with a sinful nature, but are born with a fallen nature and a flesh that, rules our lives and overpowers the spirit of man" then how can we not have been with a sin nature?

they are theological terms that have specific meanings. We have a fallen nature which propels us to sin. We do not have a sinful nature, but we do sin. Big difference in that if we actually had and were born with a sinful nature, then Christ would have assumed a sinful nature, rather than just a fallen nature. Christ assumed our fallenness to raise it to life. He did not assume a sinful nature, but was able through the Incarnation and the submission of the human will to the Divine will resist the temptations of the devil and sin. A huge difference.

The Scriptures appear to indicate that the sin nature is passed on from the head of the household, through man.

No, the fallen nature is passed on. Mortality. It is our mortal natures that propels us to sin. We sin in the flesh.

He was born like us in all respects yet without sin.

yes, we are also born without sin but do sin. Christ was able to resist sin. Christ suffered, was tempted because he did have the ability to sin. Fallen nature made this possible but He did not. That is why He is our exempliar, our example as well. It is why He was able to satisfy the law where we cannot.

Paul clearly acknowledged that sin was present in his flesh in Romans 7. He even personified his sinful nature in that chapter: "Sin, seizing the opportunity..."

yes, we sin in the flesh. It is the flesh that governs our appitites, our desires.

Couldn't it be possible that we are born with both?

Jesus was born human, yes, but what differentiated Him from humans was that HE WAS GOD. We have a dual nature which Christ did not have....sinful AND fallen. Christ was born fallen.

Something I don't quite understand....if we are born with merely a "fallen" nature, rather than a sinful one, then why is it that sin is something that permeates EVER SINGLE PERSON'S life? It is in our nature to sin, and there is not one man born that has not sinned. If we were merely "fallen," or separated from God, then how is it that those people who enjoy a close relationship with God still have this inclination towards sin?

If we were born as merely "fallen" creatures, we would not necessarily be tempted to sin....we would just be separated from God. When Jesus took on human form, He was separated from the Father...but he did not have the proclivity to sin; but then again, if Jesus lacked this proclivity, then how was it that Satan could "tempt" Him....unless Satan was blind, and thought that Christ could be tempted when He could not be. I believe this is the case...I don't understand how Christ could POSSIBLY be tempted to sin, because he was born righteous...but only because Jesus is God, NOT because we human beings are born righteous.

As Jesus proved, separation from God, or "the fallen state," does not necessarily mitigate a "sinful nature." The reason that Jesus was not sinful in nature was that HE WAS GOD....but He was still born with the fallen nature.

Humans, though, are born with both sinful nature, and a fallen state.

We are not born with "original sin"...we are born with a sinful nature, which resulted from original sin, and was passed down from Adam and Eve. Man is fallen BECAUSE he sinned against God....one describes man's state, and the other his nature. Jesus never sinned against God, thus, when he was born, He inherited man's fallen state, but NOT His sinful nature. His nature was still holy and perfect.

[OopsMartin]

Something I don't quite understand....if we are born with merely a "fallen" nature, rather than a sinful one, then why is it that sin is something that permeates EVERY SINGLE PERSON'S life?

It is not only the problem of our fallen nature, but because we live in a world absent the living presence of God. Because of Adam and Eve's sin Satan is now the prince of our atmosphere. We live in a world permeated with the presence of evil. We feel it, sense it, smell it, hear it, taste it. Every child is influenced by the world even in their mother's womb and then even more so after they are born. We are surrounded. It's not like Adam and Eve who were placed into a pure environment. It is impossible to not be influenced without the help of God. this is why Christ had to suffer human death in order to give us the power to resist evil. Imagine being in water without getting wet. Not possible. But with Christ all things are possible.

[DarkNebulaWelder]

Something I don't quite understand....if we are born with merely a "fallen" nature, rather than a sinful one, then why is it that sin is something that permeates EVERY SINGLE PERSON'S life?

It is not only the problem of our fallen nature, but because we live in a world absent the living presence of God. Because of Adam and Eve's sin Satan is now the prince of our atmosphere. We live in a world permeated with the presence of evil. We feel it, sense it, smell it, hear it, taste it. Every child is influenced by the world even in their mother's womb and then even more so after they are born. We are surrounded. It's not like Adam and Eve who were placed into a pure environment. It is impossible to not be influenced without the help of God. this is why Christ had to suffer human death in order to give us the power to resist evil. Imagine being in water without getting wet. Not possible. But with Christ all things are possible.

That's where you're getting into the whole "nature vs nurture" theory. Either, we sin because it is in our nature (sinful), or because we are raised in a world absent from God (fallen). Personally, I think it has a little to do with both.

True, Satan's arena of operation is the fallen world, but his modus operandi is still through our sinful nature....this is how he tempts us. The reason we are so easily deceived is because we are fallen.

This world is full of sin because it is inhabited by humans, whose natures are sinful. Wouldn't you agree that man doesn't really need direct influence from Satan to sin? He has his own flesh to lead him astray.

[OopsMartin]

Something I don't quite understand....if we are born with merely a "fallen" nature, rather than a sinful one, then why is it that sin is something that permeates EVERY SINGLE PERSON'S life?

It is not only the problem of our fallen nature, but because we live in a world absent the living presence of God. Because of Adam and Eve's sin Satan is now the prince of our atmosphere. We live in a world permeated with the presence of evil. We feel it, sense it, smell it, hear it, taste it. Every child is influenced by the world even in their mother's womb and then even more so after they are born. We are surrounded. It's not like Adam and Eve who were placed into a pure environment. It is impossible to not be influenced without the help of God. this is why Christ had to suffer human death in order to give us the power to resist evil. Imagine being in water without getting wet. Not possible. But with Christ all things are possible.

That's where you're getting into the whole "nature vs nurture" theory. Either, we sin because it is in our nature (sinful), or because we are raised in a world absent from God (fallen). Personally, I think it has a little to do with both.

True, Satan's arena of operation is the fallen world, but his modus operandi is still through our sinful nature....this is how he tempts us. The reason we are so easily deceived is because we are fallen.

This world is full of sin because it is inhabited by humans, whose natures are sinful. Wouldn't you agree that man doesn't really need direct influence from Satan to sin? He has his own flesh to lead him astray.

Yes, it has to do with both. Our fallen nature makes us more easily susceptible toward choosing sinfully. Our world is not perfect. It is cursed because of Adam and Eves sin. It is not like Eden. Fallen angels dwell here freely influencing humans at their will; walking about as roaring lions seeking whom they may devour. While we don't need direct influence from satan to sin, we live and breathe an atmosphere drenched in negative thoughts and emotions. We are affected by other people's spirituality. Satan has a much easier time deceiving humans since our fall. And if Adam though perfect simply choose wrongly, perhaps out of curiosity, just imagine how much easier it is for humans to get into trouble with a fallen nature. The other side of that is that spiritually cleansed individuals (Christians) can also influence others just be their presence and even more so by their words and actions.

We do not have a chance without God. The only question is what our opportunities are. This is why it is so important for parents to strictly control the atmosphere their infant is in and what kind of people handle him. And why parents need to directly influence their childs emotions and thought patterns toward God as soon as possible. Everyone needs God to make it sanely in this world. It's a constant battle.

[dugmando]

Firehill

Respectfully, Please read carefully,

By adam's actions i.e. his disobedience, his sin

Man did not know sin before adam but it is clear to see either way they did after adam's actions!

I can see and understand Thaddeus's point about death and don't totally disagree.

I think alot of discussion here falls along the lines of you say tomato I say tomato.

Both saying the same just different.

If sin is not from adam and his action where did it come from...?

You if you read posts can see plenty of scriptures ......same scriptures being used by both points of view.

To repeatily post same scripture over and over is not going to change anything nor anyone's mind.

Maybe just maybe this can help you

in