Marnie Posted June 21, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 811 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 7,338 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 76 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/06/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 21, 2007 Furthermore- (and this is not a question solely for you Ruth, but everyone) what happens when a husband or wife loses their libido due to an accident, surgery, pregnancy or other unforseen situation? Is that marriage null and void because the couple can no longer consumate their marriage? There are many ways to be intimate and to pleasure your partner without intercourse. Marnie you know better than that.... My point is sex shouldn't necessarily be the centre of your marriage, and no one should be guilted into doing something they don't feel like doing. There are times that this will wane, no one should be made to feel ashamed of it (which, even though I'm sure it was not your intention, i felt a bit hurt by the above sentence). Sex is not the center of a marriage, but Paul knew how important it was; so important that to NOT have sex with your spouse is considered a sin, unless it is by mutual consent. Of course, illness and age will diminish the sex drive of most of us, that's why I say there are many, many ways to be intimate with your spouse. Without a doubt, all sex begins in the your mind. To not desire intimacy says more about your attitude toward your spouse than about your health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marnie Posted June 21, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 811 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 7,338 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 76 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/06/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 21, 2007 The point about marriage/physical union, is not whether you actually do or don't have children, but that sex/marriage is ordained by God for the primary purpose of procreation. But that doesn't take away from the fact that God's primary purpose in ordaining marriage was for procreation. Shalom, That simply is not Scriptural. Please prove your statements by the Bible. Thanks. I find it difficult to understand how anyone with any knowledge of the Bible hasn't understood that God is a God of multiplication, of seed being sown and producing fruit. The whole tenor of Scripture is evidence of a God who desires procreation in body and spirit. However, may I just ask you to consider the sin of Onan and why spilling seed is so reprehensible in God's eyes? Ruth Onan's sin was dis-obedience, not spilling his seed on the ground. Another scripture that has been mis-used for centuries. I reiterate what Marnie & Vickilynn have asked. Please display scripture that says sex is primarily for procreation. The Onan scripture most definitely is pertinent here. If disobedience was the jest of the passage, the spilling the seed to the ground would not have been mentioned. Asking for an anti birth control scripture from the Bible is really a little theologically dishonest. Birth control had not been invented at the time of the penning of the Bible. Therefore it was not written about. The only two forms of birth control present at the time were both spoken against by scripture. The method Onan used, and abstinance. Paul warned not to deprive each other except by mutual consent and only for a short time. Go back and re-read my response. There was more going on there than just "spilling the seed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sierra21 Posted June 21, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 160 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,000 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/30/1983 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Sex is not the center of a marriage, but Paul knew how important it was; so important that to NOT have sex with your spouse is considered a sin, unless it is by mutual consent. Of course, illness and age will diminish the sex drive of most of us, that's why I say there are many, many ways to be intimate with your spouse. Without a doubt, all sex begins in the your mind. To not desire intimacy says more about your attitude toward your spouse than about your health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marnie Posted June 21, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 811 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 7,338 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 76 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/06/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 21, 2007 Addendum: Lest anybody misunderstand what I mean by "intimacy." One of the most intimate moments I ever had with my husband was shortly after my operation. Of course, having intercourse was impossible, but I got one of the best back rubs in my life. What made it intimate was while he was rubbing my back, Mike was sharing some deep thoughts with me about his fears and such, and he really opened up like he never had before. So, intimacy is much more than a physical encounter; it's a spiritual one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methinkshe Posted June 21, 2007 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 679 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/02/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 21, 2007 PLease just remember that I have never said that man and wife should not enjoy sexual congress, only that the primary purpose of male and female union is procreation, and mutual comfort is secondary to that. The major problem with this statement is that God is the creater and "manager" (to be worldly if I may) of our lives. If one believes that our life is molded and shaped through Christ, and person is infertile, then how can the primary purpose of sex be procreation? If God did not intend the couple have sex for the sole purpose of comfort, then why not take away their sex drive as well? I'm sorry, Vicky, but I just do not agree that because God ordained marriage for procreation that that makes Him "manager" of our lives, as you put it. God ordained man to have fellowship with Him, but because of Adam's sin and our own, we do not, unless and until we are born again and become new creations in Christ. Does that make God a "manager"? And I don't believe that our lives are moulded and shaped through Christ - that would be a total waste of time as far as I am concerned - there's nothing in me worth moulding and shaping! Imagine trying to mould and shape a lump of poo like me? Poo, in whatever shape, is still a lump of poo! No, I am a new creation in Christ, my old life, the life I live in the flesh, is dead, it died with Christ, and therefore I count it as dead. Now I am resurrected with Christ, I am a new and incorruptible creation in Jesus, with the imputed righteousness of Christ, and therefore wholly acceptable to God the Father.Furthermore- (and this is not a question solely for you Ruth, but everyone) what happens when a husband or wife loses their libido due to an accident, surgery, pregnancy or other unforseen situation? Is that marriage null and void because the couple can no longer consumate their marriage? Of course not! What ever made you think that could be the case? I assure each of you that there will be a point in your marriage when things are going to slow down and the bed will get mighty cold (pregnancy in my case). Does that make my marriage un-christian right now? what if my husband (God forbid) gets into an accident and is numb from the waist down- should I throw in the towel right there?? My personal opinion is that we have taken vows to remain married until death no matter what, and I will honour those vows. But some of the views expressed earlier seem to indicate a slightly different idea?? Maybe it's just my way of understand but if any of you could clarify that would be great. I am keeping my marriage vows. I am married to an unbelieving husband. Also, through no wish of my own, I have slept in a separate room from my husband for 8 years. None of this in any way changes what God has said about my marriage or marriage in general. Just because I/we can't live up to God's perfect intent for my/our marriage, doesn't make it any less valid. Nor does it make me any more sinful - just incapable as a fallen human being, of being and having the best that God intended for humanity. What God ordains as His perfect "recipe" for life, if you like, is different from what we are able to accomplish. But that doesn't mean that God's recipe isn't the best, nor does it necessarily mean that our inability to accomlish it is anything more or less than human fraility. What I believe is most important is that we are in agreement with God whether or not we manage to accomplish His perfect will and ordinances which, after all, were given for our best. I so dislike seeing God's Word traduced just because we find ourselves incapable of living up to it. In Jesus, Ruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted June 21, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted June 21, 2007 I am in basic agreement Ruth, and have been in the same situation. Certainly I would have liked to have many more kids than we have had, but for a variety of reasons both physical, and now emotional that is not going to happen for my wife. So be it; that does not change the vows we have made, or the fact that I do love her, and also for me it is a spiritual challenge we all have a cross and must learn how to bear it with patience. But it also does not change that fact that God instituted and created sex for the primary purpose of procreation between married couples to create a family. but in His mercy and love He also made sex when it is healthy; to be good, joyous, and enjoyable and a way for two people who are married to bond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marnie Posted June 21, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 811 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 7,338 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 76 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/06/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 21, 2007 But it also does not change that fact that God instituted and created sex for the primary purpose of procreation between married couples to create a family. but in His mercy and love He also made sex when it is healthy; to be good, joyous, and enjoyable and a way for two people who are married to bond. Just one single, solitary verse would be nice to support this statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted June 21, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 21, 2007 The Onan scripture most definitely is pertinent here. Shalom HR, No, it's not. Please read the OP. This is not about birth control. Asking for an anti birth control scripture from the Bible is really a little theologically dishonest. Hijacking a thread talking about the BIBLE and sex to promote an non-Biblical view of sex within marriage is inconsiderate. Continuing that to turn this into a birth control thread is irresponsible. Please HR, before you jump in with both feet with posts that are not the topic, please read the OP. It has nothing to do with birth control and it has nothing to do with Onan. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted June 21, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 21, 2007 PLease just remember that I have never said that man and wife should not enjoy sexual congress, only that the primary purpose of male and female union is procreation, and mutual comfort is secondary to that. The major problem with this statement is that God is the creater and "manager" (to be worldly if I may) of our lives. If one believes that our life is molded and shaped through Christ, and person is infertile, then how can the primary purpose of sex be procreation? If God did not intend the couple have sex for the sole purpose of comfort, then why not take away their sex drive as well? Furthermore- (and this is not a question solely for you Ruth, but everyone) what happens when a husband or wife loses their libido due to an accident, surgery, pregnancy or other unforseen situation? Is that marriage null and void because the couple can no longer consumate their marriage? I assure each of you that there will be a point in your marriage when things are going to slow down and the bed will get mighty cold (pregnancy in my case). Does that make my marriage un-christian right now? what if my husband (God forbid) gets into an accident and is numb from the waist down- should I throw in the towel right there?? My personal opinion is that we have taken vows to remain married until death no matter what, and I will honour those vows. But some of the views expressed earlier seem to indicate a slightly different idea?? Maybe it's just my way of understand but if any of you could clarify that would be great. Shalom Sierra, I hear you. And you are correct. Sex is neither required or necessary within marriage if both parties chose or agree to celibacy, even for a time. When I was battling cancer and enduring 18 months of horrible chemotherapy and the side effects, the LAST thing I wanted was sex. BUT, I wanted physical contact and intimacy (but not sex) and my husband and I decided what was best for us. This does not mean the marriage was any less of anything. Yours is not either. Don't let other's opinions make you doubt! Marriage is more than sex. Of course, there is nothing wrong with sex, but it is not the determining factor in whether a marriage is "Christian" or not or even strong or not. As a caveat, I would say that the abstinence must be MUTAL, or it is defrauding one another of their marriage rights, according to Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted June 21, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 21, 2007 But it also does not change that fact that God instituted and created sex for the primary purpose of procreation between married couples to create a family. but in His mercy and love He also made sex when it is healthy; to be good, joyous, and enjoyable and a way for two people who are married to bond. Shalom Smalcald, I'm sorry, but that is not Scripturally supported. G-d created sexual intimacy within marriage for many reasons, all of them equally valid. Procreation is not the primary reason. I would like to see this position supported by Scripture, because it is simply man's opinion, not G-d's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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