Smalcald Posted July 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted July 12, 2007 It is actually very easy. The bible always refers to an unborn baby in the womb as a human being; as a person, in fact a person who jumps for joy when the unborn Christ is near. The fact that our freaky science takes this human life; this baby out of the womb and does all sorts of experiments on that life and throws it around like a piece of garbage does not change the fact of what it is and what is going on which is close to genocide. But this is linked to our love of abortion, really a country which kills so many unborn babies as a method of birth control would of course embrace using these babies for experiments in or out of the womb. It goes to the utilitarian, Nazi style view of human life. I have had the opposite experience; the more I have learned about this, the more I am against embryonic stem cell research. For example embryonic stem cell research requires cloning. It is the fist step in my mind to human cloning. The culture of death is all connected-abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research, IVF, human cloning, the death penalty, and on and on it is all about manipulating, killing and using human life for utilitarian purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted July 12, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted July 12, 2007 To come to this conclusion you have taken every one of those out of context. You need to look at each verse. Look at the time it was written who the audience was and the knowledge of the people writing it and keep it in context to that reality. You also must keep in mind the symbolism used at the time of the writing and the meaning used at the time. This is what I mean by out of context. You have removed every one of those verses from the time frame it was written and applied its contextually to our understanding relevant to our time. This is a mistake often made when reading the Bible and often leads to very wrong understanding of Gods word. You have to take it out of context not to reach the same conclusion as me. It's talking about a pregnancy (biological) and it's also talking about the spiritual (ensoulment) [the symbolism]. The two go hand in hand and both are applicable to the time frame it was written and to us today because pregnancy doesn't change. I didn't say it wasn't applicable to us today. The entire Bible is applicable. What you are doing is ignoring who wrote the words. The understanding of those words at the time they were written and the audience to whom they were written or spoken to at the time they were said. You are using a 21'st century understanding of the words and trying to filter the message by that understanding. You must use the understanding of the time and the context of the time to understand the message. During that time, life outside of the womb was not even a concept. It is the only reference they had. To apply their use of the word womb and their understanding to this situation is taking it out of context. The message may apply but the context of the word does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypathia Posted July 12, 2007 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 300 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/10/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 12, 2007 It is actually very easy. The bible always refers to an unborn baby in the womb as a human being; as a person, in fact a person who jumps for joy when the unborn Christ is near. The fact that our freaky science takes this human life; this baby out of the womb and does all sorts of experiments on that life and throws it around like a piece of garbage does not change the fact of what it is and what is going on which is close to genocide. But this is linked to our love of abortion, really a country which kills so many unborn babies as a method of birth control would of course embrace using these babies for experiments in or out of the womb. It goes to the utilitarian, Nazi style view of human life. I have had the opposite experience; the more I have learned about this, the more I am against embryonic stem cell research. For example embryonic stem cell research requires cloning. It is the fist step in my mind to human cloning. The culture of death is all connected-abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research, IVF, human cloning, the death penalty, and on and on it is all about manipulating, killing and using human life for utilitarian purposes. The bible always refers to an unborn baby in the womb as a human being; as a person, in fact a person who jumps for joy when the unborn Christ is near. Key words...in the womb; John lept for joy in the womb not at the moment of conception; Elisabeth was farther along in the pregnancy. Embryonic stem-cells are 150 cells and at the beginning of conception; there is no womb; there's only a petrie dish then an incinerator, a sink drain or a garbage can and hopefully someday soon a medical research labratory for a few. Also keep in mind that there are many references where even unborns in the womb are ripped out by order of Yahweh; or dried up in the womb. The rest of your post is quite a tirade of baseless but popular emotional appeals; a sure sign that you're on the wrong side of this issue; otherwise such absurd verbal stretches would not be nessary. Emotional appeals are valid when they're based on true emotion, true need but dishonest and misleading when they're not. James Dobson made the "nazi" comparison last year and the Anti-Defamation League came down on him for it (They support embryonic stem-cell research btw). As for "freaky science" think about that one the next time you go to a doctor for ANYTHING. What was the life expectancy 100 yrs ago? 40? 50? What was it for women? Less than 40 or 50? Maybe "Freaky science" has already saved your life at some point? I would have been dead decades ago if not for "freaky science". --- What a thing to say; it's as absurd as saying people "love" abortion? My goodness where have I heard all those phrases before? Do any of you have an original thought/opinion left in you? kansasdad - I understand the big picture better than you. I understand what the bible is saying here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypathia Posted July 12, 2007 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 300 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/10/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 12, 2007 I hope Hillary Clinton supports therapeudic cloning too. With therapeudic cloning you could get an organ perfectly matched to your own DNA therefore you wouldn't have to take anti-rejection drugs for the rest of your life. You also wouldn't have to "pray" that somebody else die so you or a loved one could get that person's organs. When you "pray" for an organ transplant that's basically what it boils down to; you're praying that some healthy person dies in an accident so you can harvest their organs. But, I do think people should donate their organs because it's a fact of life that people die unexpectedly in accidents and when that happens they don't need their organs anymore; donate them to someone that does need them so that person can live. But embryonic stem-cell research works on the same principle. Just as people die in accidents it's a fact that these embryos are destroyed; donate them to research that could help other people. Throwing them in the garbage benefits noone just as burying a body without an organ donation benefits noone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted July 12, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted July 12, 2007 When the light is darkness it is dark indeed. My only response is to turn it over to God in prayer. I will be praying for you specificly Hypathia, please do the same for me. God Bless, Kansas Dad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrestkc Posted July 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 12, 2007 You know, back to Hillary. It is not secret that I lean left on some issues. I have contributed to Democratic Campaigns before. I have volunteered for the Democratic Party before. In fact, I am a registered Democrat. Thats not to say that I don't occasionally vote for Republicans, because I do. Especially at the state and local level, and especially if they are more of the moderate / libertarian type instead of the socially conservative types. That all said, I am not big on Hillary. Never really have been. It is over a year before the next presidential election, so I don't know how I am going to vote, but if she does win the nomination, I really don't know that I would vote for her. Its not that I think she would make a bad president, she certainly seems more than competent for the job, I just really don't care for her much. I guess it really depends on who the Republicans end up nominating as to whether I would vote for her or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papasangel Posted July 13, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 70 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,513 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 39 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/19/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/27/1959 Share Posted July 13, 2007 papasangel -- you are wrong. Listen to the very words you use; they're not even your own. I can turn on the radio or check my e-mail and hear the exact same phrases on this issue day in and day out. Stop referring to "embryonic stem-cells as babies" because it's not true; that's lying. But it is something to think about too, why do you think James Dobson's misleads people by doing this all the time in his e-mails and on his radio programs? Obviously it's because if he refers to these embryos honestly the listeners won't go along with James in opposing the research. Remember, Dobson isn't a minister, he's a psychologist, he knows how to manipulate people. He is the driving force behind this opposition whether you know it or not. As for the "judgement thing". Turn about is fair play, "people like you" (as you refer to yourself) are gonna start reaping what you've sown so don't start whining about being judged or called names. "People like you" (as you refer to yourself) eat it up when Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity, and O'Really get down and dirty, so it's a little late to cry "foul" now when it starts to boomerang back on you. It's time for the verbal double standards to be over. Start using your brain cells, if microscopic embryos were babies then why aren't you picketing invitro fertilization clinics or calling your representatives demanding that they bann invitro? Why aren't you running to the invitro clinics and offering to incubate 10 or 15 of these microscopic embryos yourself? You know I'll just say it, opposing this research is just dumb, dumb, dumb; it's also cruel and inhumane. There is not one good thing; not one redeeming quality that I can point to, among those who stand in opposition to the research...no not one. There's no nice way of putting it. Your whole viewpoint on this issue is totally turned around backward. You say you'd go so far as to refuse a future cure for your own child??? Refusing one for yourself is one thing but thinking you'd refuse one for your child is another; the only blood you'd have on your hands in a situation like that would be the blood of your child because these microscipic specks don't have any blood. I love my child, I'd never deny my child a treatment; if a parent isn't going to protect their child and look out for their best interest because they've turned their mind and their "free-will" over to some radio pundent then I'd say that's way too much power to give somebody else and it's time to step back away from the "cult" and deprogram yourself. Now, I'll probably get banned for saying all that but that's okay, it needs to be said. But, I also need to pull myself away from this site again because it becomes very draining when I post here. Talking to mean, misguided, ignorant people who actually think they're kind, smart and "doing the will of God" becomes exhausting quickly. So take this post anyway you want. If it insults you I don't really care at this point because you're just wrong and being wrong on this issue is dangerous to real people and I don't feel compelled to water that fact down anymore. Name calling is always a tool of last resort. LOL, sorry but that's annoying coming from a far-righter; just more "do as I say not as I do"....."only positive strokes for me". Refer to my earlier comments a the paragraph above. so now I am a liar among other things you rrefer me to. Because I think differently than you do. Oh well I guess that is the price I pay as a follower of Christ. Then again when I stand before God my conscious will be clear on the pro life issue as well as my life in general. I wish you the best. Sorry you won't be with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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