One God or many?

February 11, 2004

I ask that those of you who are more versed than I to help me figure out why God spoke several times in plural? (we - us) I have been told that this refers to the Trinity of God, Jesus, And the Holy Spirit, but I do find that anywhere.

February 11, 2004

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

this verse points out clearly that the Holy Spirit was present at the creation of the world.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4I n him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

these verses describe how Jesus was involved in the creation of the world. Jesus is the Word of God, who later became flesh.

The Hebrew word for God is "Elohim", which is the plural, yet is always referred to in singular context. This indicate that the Hebrews recognized God as being one, while at the same time NOT being one.

does that help?

February 11, 2004

Elohim is what we call a "plural of intensity." It is like the Hebrew word for blood, "dahm." If I say "there is blood on the floor," I use the word "dahm." If I want to say "there is a lot of blood on the floor," I use the plural "dahmim." It is another example of a plural of intensity.

Elohim means "The Great God." We see the God head in the Deut. 6:4 "Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad." Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE. The word "One" as used here is "Echad," and is used as denoting a singular plurality. It is used when the scripture says that husband and wife become "one flesh." It is not necessarily a reference to an absolute "one" such as "one" apple. It can be used that way, but the context determines its usage.

Scripture teaches that God is one, and made up of more than person. We see in the above reference to Deut. 6:4 that God is mentioned three times in that verse. "Adonai, Eloheinu, Adonai" Could that be a clue?

February 11, 2004

I John 5:6

For there are three that bare record in Heaven, the Father, The Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

God bless.

ChosenOne

Cheri

February 11, 2004

this verse points out clearly that the Holy Spirit was present at the creation of the world.

these verses describe how Jesus was involved in the creation of the world. Jesus is the Word of God, who later became flesh.

I can accept your concept, but now admit that your answer creates a new question. Again, I do not claim to be an expert, just confused about some things. If God created man in his/their image, and he was perfect/without sin, then why would there be a reason for Jesus/Holy Spirit? My understanding is that God became flesh to walk amoung man, to be resurrected as a way to save us from our sins. Did God know that Adam would eat the apple? I mean, if God knows everything, then he knew Adam would eat the apple, and thus, the need for Jesus/Holy Spirit.

I am sure there is a reasonable explaination for this.

February 11, 2004

yes, God knew the choices adam and eve would make. he gave us free will. he did not create us to be robots. he created us for His glory. we were created to worship God, but not FORCED to worship Him.

the way you worded your post sounds as though you have the impression that God created the Holy Spirit and Jesus for the purpose of our salvation. this is not true. the Holy Spirit and Jesus are inseparable from God. They were part of God before we were ever created. they didn't exist for US, we exist for THEM.

skidd, are you a christian? just asking since the last time i assumed someone was a christian (fovezer) i was quickly corrected that he was an athiest.

Dad Ernie · February 11, 2004

Greetings Skidd2

I can accept your concept, but now admit that your answer creates a new question. Again, I do not claim to be an expert, just confused about some things. If God created man in his/their image, and he was perfect/without sin, then why would there be a reason for Jesus/Holy Spirit? My understanding is that God became flesh to walk amoung man, to be resurrected as a way to save us from our sins. Did God know that Adam would eat the apple? I mean, if God knows everything, then he knew Adam would eat the apple, and thus, the need for Jesus/Holy Spirit.

Let me first point out some verses regarding Jesus:

Heb 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

John 14:7-11 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Col 1:13-19 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Now this was/is Jesus - "the express image of our Father God". Here is "man" including Adam:

Rom 8:20-22 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

The word "vanity" here in the Greek is:

3153 mataiotes {mat-ah-yot'-ace}

from 3152; TDNT - 4:523,571; n f

AV - vanity 3; 3

1) what is devoid of truth and appropriateness

2) perverseness, depravity

3) frailty, want of vigour

I highlighted #3 above because I believe this was the condition of Adam when he was created. Only one that has walked this earth in human form that was perfect was Jesus Christ. This is a mistake that a lot of people make when confronted with the condition of Adam in the Garden. Adam WAS NOT "perfect". Yes, he was created "in the image or likeness" of God, but it has to do with "power" and "authority" and NOT the visual physical or even the "spiritual" condition of Adam.

Adam had nothing within himself to persist in life. His power was "limited" to the confines of THIS creation, as was the authority God gave him to rule over THIS creation. There is a PHYSICAL limitation to the POWER mankind has, as opposed to POWER that is in the SPIRITUAL REALM, where God and angels find their abode. We find ourselves pretty much at the mercy of our surroundings. Even as there is a 3rd Law of Thermodynamics, the principal of that law also applies to humankind, as well as all creation. Basically "everything in this creation is running downhill". This may be oversimplified, but I hope you catch the drift. We find that ONLY in Christ can we receive POWER to overcome this world, and to overcome death.

Now God KNEW the frailty by which He created Adam. If Adam had not received the "breath of God", thus giving him life, we would be nothing but dust, and in the end of our lives, we shall again return to dust, but the life (soul) we have that inhabited that temporary abode returns to God who gave it:

Eccl 3:19-21 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

So God decided before the foundation of this creation, to send the WORD, the same WORD that created all of creation, in the person of Jesus Christ, to be the one to pay the penalty for our sins, even for Adam's. The only condition that God makes upon us is:

John 3:15-21 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Please take your time on these verses. Consider them prayerfully. Ask God for "wisdom".

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

February 11, 2004

yes, God knew the choices adam and eve would make. he gave us free will. he did not create us to be robots. he created us for His glory. we were created to worship God, but not FORCED to worship him.

You see, that's the part that troubles me. We, humans, are given a "free will" and promptly go out and sin. God knew this. So lets look at our choices, worship God, or burn in hell. Love me or I will kill you?

How can any one love a being that forces you to love them? In fact what you describe sounds very much like an abusive husband.

February 11, 2004

LOL, no, it doesn't. i was once married to an abusive husband.

the point here is that God does not force us at all. he allows us chance after chance throughout our entire lives, right up to the moment of our death, to simply say "i'm sorry". if He didn't love us, we would not be given unlimited chances. the ultimate penalty for refusing to repent is hell as we think of it... (no theological explanations differentiating hell from the lake of fire necessary here!)

that is a consequence of making a choice to hate God and serve His enemy. it isn't God who wants us to go there. it's satan, who truly is evil and truly does hate us, that wants to lure us to spend an eternity burning, and our stubborn refusal to accept God's love that seals our fate.

February 11, 2004

So God decided before the foundation of this creation, to send the WORD, the same WORD that created all of creation, in the person of Jesus Christ, to be the one to pay the penalty for our sins, even for Adam's. The only condition that God makes upon us is:

I seems that I must be stupid, I freely admit that I am on a quest for knowledge. I can find no reason why Jesus needed pay a penalty for something that he/God/The Word did intentionally. We were made to sin and Adam fulfilled that intent. Now it appears that all that is needed to be saved is to believe. If that is all that is needed, then why isn't a clear, no doubt about it visit from God just as good? If he needed to prove that there is life after death, if that was the point, then a much more public appearance was needed.