Another take on "Free Will"

[Massorite]

Hi Cajunboy,

I'm personally of the view that the Bible teaches predestination. Romans 9 and Romans 6 are of particular value, as is 1 Peter 2:8. Exodus contains at least 4 references to God "hardening Pharaoh's heart", which implies he had no free will, though on other occassions, it states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, so it sounds like God did harden the heart, but it was Pharaoh who allowed it.

But thank you for the post, it is correct that the language now is different to what it was back then and the language needs to be understood in its proper historical context. Would you mind sharing the passages that speak of man's will that you have found? You said taht you found 8 references to this in the Bible, I'd be interested to see these to see how they affect the belief of free will.

Thanks mate

~ Paranoid Android

Islam teaches predestination. That is how a Muslim is justified when he blows himself up along with babies, women, children, old people and the like. Because they believe that if you are there when he blows himself up and you get hurt or die "It was Allah's will/predestination that you would be there on that day, at that moment so you would be hurt or get killed.

Predestination can not be proven scripturally. If you think you can prove it. Show me the scriptures.

[Mutzrein]

A question if you will. How much free will is required in order to be born?

In order to be born two people(male & female) must freely choose to procreate.

I'm not talking about those who choose to have a child. I'm talking about the child. Did you choose to be born?

[Mutzrein]

A question if you will. How much free will is required in order to be born?

. . .

Man is dead in sins, cannot understand (or even think the thoughts of God), would never seek God, and is, in fact, hostile towards God. Now, given all of that, how can man be saved by

[ParanoidAndroid]

Cajunboy :::Sorry, my friend....I totally disagree with the "conveyer belt" scenario ! There are far too many scriptures/versus that contradict that theory. What kind of God would HE be if HE just "pick and chose" whom he FELT was "Pro-God" or not. My friend if your friend's theory held true, I would be an example of one who should have been on the "conveyer to hell" but because I believe and trust God with all my heart, GOD pulled my out of the trenches and gutters of New Orleans, on drunk dirty night, and my life's never been the same since that night 40 years ago. Now , you might say, "But that was the plan God had for you!" True! But if it was, it was all for me to be but a good example and testamony of a lost soul gone GOOD!

And I'm guessing that you've got yourself convinced that YOU are not worthy and God doesn't have you on the conveyer to Heaven? And I"m here to tell you PA, that you're only making excuses so that you don't have to repent of what you think you enjoy! You may think that God wanted you "THAT" way and you have no alternative....but I was once where you are in my mind....and it all change, on that blessed night. I only remember, just before the transition happened , drowning in my drunkened tears and laying face down on the sidewalk of a "beerstinking" avenue., of which there are a lot of them there....that and the strong urine smell. I'll never forget that gut-wrenching night that I was totally converted. So , you go ahead and allow satan to continue deceiving you, it is your decision! But I will continue praying for you and the millions of others that share the same deception!

blessings

Hi cajun. firstly, I do not believe that I am on the conveyor belt to hell. You're making assumptions there, I'm not sure what that's based on. I believe I am one of those that God has chosen to be his child. The Grace that God has passed through Jesus' death has been given to me, and indeed to all who accept that gift of eternal salvation. You may not like to think that God just "picks and chooses" his followers, but that's what the Bible says. Everyone who follows God follows him because God has called them. No one can come to God unless God calls them. I believe I am one of the ones that has been chosen.

But we humans do not know who God has chosen. It would be unconscionable to look at someone and say "They can't be saved". You stated yourself that you were in a bad way. But it is a testament of God's greatness that even those who seem "unsaveable" have no chance if God wills it to soften their hearts. Just because God has predestined us doesn't give us the right to sit back and say "nope, I'm not going to try to save that person because if they are saved, God will do it anyway". That was our choice to not try and save that person, even if that choice was predestined. Who's to say that it's not through you or I that God will save that person.

So in short, thanks for the prayers, God knows I need every one I can get. But I don't understand what deception it is you are worried about that I and millions of others believe. I believe in predestination, and by everything I can see from Christian belief, I'm in the minority here, with the majority of Christians in the modern world believing in free will

~ PA

[ParanoidAndroid]

It appears that you and i are in a strange position. i had always believed in free will but would prefer to believe in predestination and you are a believer in predestination that would prefer to believe in free will.

That is rather ironic, isn't it. Isn't it funny how things like that work.

At least this is what you would consider a "non-essential doctrine". Whether I am right or you are right or something else altogether (I am not against the possibility that in the spiritual realm of God, free will and predestination are completely compatible, though they seem opposites in the physical world)..... it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the death and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour, the Son of God, one part of the Trinity.

btw i did not know that 'free will' was a recent idea. are you saying that before the 18th century that all christians believed in predestination?

Research the "Age of Enlightenment" for details. Springing out of the end of the Middle Ages in Europe, there were certain "freethinkers" who held no belief in God and decided that they were masters of their own destiny. As I said in my last post to you, I use the quotes around "freethinker" because their rejection of God has made them far from free, though they do not know it.

Anyhow, the Age of Enlightenment saw a fundamental shift in philosophy from God-centred to man-centred beliefs. Free will was one of these concepts. Throughout most every other culture before this time, everything existed as a direct result of God's will and design, including our lives. Have a read up sometime, it is most interesting.

~ PA

[ParanoidAndroid]

Predestination can not be proven scripturally. If you think you can prove it. Show me the scriptures.

By all means, I'm happy to share the scriptures with you. As I said earlier, I used to believe in free will (it makes much more sense). Being Christian, I took the view that we existed on this earth because God is giving us the chance to choose to follow him or not. It made sense. But after reading the Bible, I came to realise that it did not exist. Some of the passages, I have already quoted in this thread (Exodus passages on Pharaoh, 1 Peter 2:8). However, if you want the best exposition of such a topic, Romans 9 is a great passage. Paul asks (and answers) many questions that a Christian can't logically ignore simply because they believe in freewill. It's important to note before I begin that free will is only a historically recent concept ("recent" as in since the 18th century - see my post above about the Age of Enlightenment for details). Prior to this date, people would have looked at you funny if you suggested free will.

Looking at Romans 9 then, picking up from verse 10:

10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad

[Rhonda Lou]

Dear Rhonda Lou,

Yes, I think we do view the reference to "longsuffering" differently. The passage from 2 Peter 3, would correlate very nicely that the Lord God wants ALL to come to repentance, but because of "free-will" ALL do not. Some choose differently, but I think this also would point back to the fact that God created a tree of knowledge of "good and evil". This tree (IMHO) signifies choice/freewill to choose "good" or "evil", otherwise, God would have just left THAT tree out of creation. Obviously, there must be an acknowledgement and choosing, due to the name of this tree. Once His Holy Spirit speaks to us, concerning His salvation and power, we have the "knowledge" to understand that HE is GOOD and that HE is merciful and willing to help us overcome the evil, if we choose to follow HIM.

1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles. 8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

Deut. 30 passages also indicate a choice to make.

The term of "whosoever" throughout Scripture, indicate no "exclusions".

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

In His Love,

Suzanne

TSTH,

Thank you for sharing those verses. My response to your original post had to do with the term "longsuffering" in the two passages you cited. I said what I believed it meant in both of those passages. In terms of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, nobody knows for sure the mind of God, but Revelation 13:8, though the context is in regards to the Antichrist, references "the Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world." So, God knew that men would sin and need the salvation of Christ. This will be controversial, but I believe that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was placed in the garden to accomplish that purpose. I say this because Paul mentions in Romans 7:7b-8 says, "I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, 'Thou shall not covet.' But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the saw sin was dead." In essence, Paul is saying, "I didn't even WANT to covet until the law came and told me not to covet." The same is true today. I don't even want to look down from a great height, or walk on grass, until somebody tells me to not look down, or I read a sign that says, "Don't walk on the grass." Everybody on earth knows that the surest way to get somebody to do something is to tell them not to. If we've figured that out, in our own humanness, I believe God could have figured out the same thing -- even before Adam and Eve sinned. That, in essence, was "predestiining" or working to bring about a desired outcome. Now, again, nobody knows the mind of God, but as to the "why", I see that in that God wanted people to choose Him.

So, I am not discounting your belief in man's will, so to speak. You are correct, the Bible teaches both. Just because God may have set Adam up to sin, does not discount the fact that Adam chose to sin. My own perspective on it, in my finite brain, is that God knows that we'd never choose Him. I believe I've cited verses on this topic already stating that man, left to his own devices, would never choose God. So, God has to work to bring people to Him. He works in the lives of those He's chosen. Now, He can take us to water, but we still have to drink, meaning that I believe that He calls us, He works in our lives to bring us to faith, He actually GIVES us the gift of repentance (Acts 13:47-48, 2 Timothy 2:25), and GIVES us the gift of faith, and grace to believe (Ephesians 2:8-9), (in essence, putting the faith in our hearts, and the words in our mouth), but we still have to speak them. I believe that His predestination, predetermination, and working in our lives, trumps our own will. We need to be born again, and we can't do that ourselves, any more than we could do anything to be born physically -- it is all from outside us.

Now, as to the meaning of "all", sometimes it is general, and includes everybody, and sometimes it is not. I can say that everybody will watch a football game, watch politics, be at a party -- whatever anybody's passion is, but I know that not EVERYBODY will be there -- just those I know, or those who agree with me. The Bible has one meaning in mind in some places, and another meaning in mind in other places. But "all" can't ALWAYS mean "all" because Jesus says that He lies down His life for His sheep. He does not say all, He says "His sheep". And there are precedents in the Bible where some are chosen or destined for bad things:

Now see that I, even I, am He, and there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive, I wound and I heal, nor is there any who can deliver from my hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39)

19Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right. (1 Peter 4:19)

16For I will show him (Paul) how much he must suffer for My name's sake." (Acts 9:16)

1Then the LORD said to me, "Even although Moses and Samuel were to stand before Me, My heart would not be with this people; send them away from My presence and let them go! 2"And it shall be that when they say to you, 'Where should we go?' then you are to tell them, 'Thus says the LORD: "Those destined for death, to death; and those destined for the sword, to the sword; and those destined for famine, to famine; and those destined for captivity, to captivity."' 3"I will appoint over them four kinds of doom," declares the LORD: "the sword to slay, the dogs to drag off, and the birds of the sky and the beasts of the earth to devour and destroy. (Jeremiah 15:1-3)

Then, there are the passages which clearly state that God chose us. Ephesians 1:3-5 says,

[Thaddaeus]

ParanoidAndroid,

As an aside, if we were having this discussion 300 years ago and anyone mentioned the term "free will", you'd get blank stares and people would say "What? What is this free will of which you speak". It wasn't until the 18th Century that the idea of free will was first thought up. Before this time, everyone who believed in God believed in his divine control of the world and everything in it. They had no problem with predestination, and it wasn't until some "freethinkers" (I use the term in quotes because I think freethinkers are greater slaves than anyone else and far from free, though they think by rejecting God that they are) stood up and decided that they weren't going to have an omnipotent God control their destiny.

18th century. Have you actually studied history and on the topic of Biblcial studies have you ever done any study on this term, let alone the understanding of the term?

Way back in Genesis, when man was created in God's Image, the three most important aspects of that Image was, man was created free, communal and unique. Adam had a choice, a free choice. The concept of choice is so rampant in Scripture that you can hardly avoid it in any book, maybe even chapters. It is the very distinctive correlation betweem man and God.

It may be that you do not understand just what "free will" entails, as in reading through this thread, many seem to be unsure and no definition has been put forth.

Many think it is autonomous will such as God's will. There is a huge difference between the two. Also, some confuse it with God's Providence, also not the same thing.

Man has the capability to make choices. He is a rational, moral being, a free agent creature.

This is what Gregory of Nyssa says about the creation of man.

"....we must make two basic clarifications. First, the immortality of the soul is not a natural attribute; it is a gift of the grace of God. Second, the creation of the soul and body in this particular manner, an act of the unfathomable divine love, also proves the depth of divine wisdom and divine economy for mankind. And for this reason: If God had created man immortal, then man aught also to have been incapable of sinning. For, if while immortal, he had fallen into sin, evil would have existed eternally. And evil would have itself, become immortal! On the other hand, if God had indeed created man immortal and therefore, incapable of sinning, then the freedom of man would have been curbed: man would not have been a free being. If again God had created man to be mortal, then the Creator would have been "the cause of the death" of His creature!" "ON the Song of Songs, Homily 12PG 44, 1020C.

By the way St Gregory of Nyssa lived in the 4th century, well before the 18th don't you think?

On the other hand this view all through the Church Fathers which is all based on Scripture also precludes predestination as understood by protestants only.

Man never lost that ability to choose. He is created as a link between the Divine and the material. That is possesses body and soul. It is the soul that is linked to the Divine Energies of God and instills in man the propensity to seek God, as he was created good before the fall.

But that will, as all of man's nature became dulled, clouded, corrupted. In seeking God, after the fall, man to often let nature rule and in doing so, began to worship in the forms of that material world.

In redeeming mankind from the bondage to this death and sin, God again makes it possible for man to join with God for an eternity by giving all of mankind life, immortality. But the choice of whether they will seek union with God or without God remains. Man is the determinant factor in that He will dwell with God or apart from Him. Part of that Great Gift of Mercy, of God to Man, Jesus Christ, our Redeemer, God pours out His Divine measure (the Holy Spirit) upon all flesh. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to lead all men to God, to convict the world of sin. All are taught by the Father, but not all learn of Him. God, because of Christ draws all men to Himself, but one must look, learn, listen, and accept that leading.

That is the meaning behind "free will" vs "autonomous will". Man is influenced but man is free to make his own choice in the matter. He is neither autonomous, nor does he act irrational, as do animals when led by instinct are compelled to act the same each time. Man is a rational being, thus is moved by discernment, by rational, reasonable alternatives of action.

That is actually the definition of a human being.

Texts used for predestination, which Protestants need to support a theory of believers being saved, has nothing to do with believers or the fact that they are predestined to be such. The whole issue of God hardening is not a creative or permanent act of God upon man's nature. That is God's providential work being carried out using even evil men. In the case of Pharaoh, he had also hardened his heart before God did. If you read Acts 2 regarding those human beings who have a life long been outside of any union with God, were left to the devil. This is a view of God's foreknowledge in that God knows who will eventually believe on Him. To know this fact, God does not need to ordain any act. God is not trancendent of His created order. He did not just set things in motion and we live in a fateful, deistic understanding of the world.

Chastisement is a moot issue, if man was not free. There is just way too much in Scripture that supports man's free will. That fact alone precludes the modern understanding of "predestination".

Such things as prayer would be futile and meaningless. God clearly created man to have union with man, an active, interchangeable communion, in which man works with God, or remains outside, freely of any union.

[Massorite]

A question if you will. How much free will is required in order to be born?

In order to be born two people(male & female) must freely choose to procreate.

I'm not talking about those who choose to have a child. I'm talking about the child. Did you choose to be born?

God is in control of who is born and who is not. Even if a child is conceived because of a rape. God knew that child before it was in its mothers womb and when it is born and grows to the age of consent or the knowledge of good and bad it is at that time that the child has the God given choice between doing what is right and what is wrong. The Jewish aspect of the age of consent is 12. But I think that it depends on the individual.

[Massorite]

Predestination can not be proven scripturally. If you think you can prove it. Show me the scriptures.

By all means, I'm happy to share the scriptures with you. As I said earlier, I used to believe in free will (it makes much more sense). Being Christian, I took the view that we existed on this earth because God is giving us the chance to choose to follow him or not. It made sense. But after reading the Bible, I came to realise that it did not exist. Some of the passages, I have already quoted in this thread (Exodus passages on Pharaoh, 1 Peter 2:8). However, if you want the best exposition of such a topic, Romans 9 is a great passage. Paul asks (and answers) many questions that a Christian can't logically ignore simply because they believe in freewill. It's important to note before I begin that free will is only a historically recent concept ("recent" as in since the 18th century - see my post above about the Age of Enlightenment for details). Prior to this date, people would have looked at you funny if you suggested free will.

Looking at Romans 9 then, picking up from verse 10:

10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad