Another take on "Free Will"

[Rhonda Lou]

"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Regardless of what people think will happen with belief in predestination,

Again, mutually exclusive. Predestination of believers does not need the Word, does not need to hear and surely does not require faith. If it did, it is not degreed, it is not predestination. You couch all your explanation in the will of man, yet think you are predestined to do so. Impossible.

It might be better to study the real meaing of predestination. What it means to have something ordained from the beginning. A act by decree, not choice. They are polar opposites.

And what is your understanding of the words translated into English as predestined? (Eph. 1)

KJN,

I'm not sure whether you are asking me, or Thaddeus. I had heard for decades that predestination means that God knew what we decided beforehand, and so He made His plans accordingly. This troubles me because it puts me in the place of God and places Him as my "servant" waiting on what I would do. BUT, what really convinced me of predestination is Romans 8:29a: For whom He FOREKNEW (this means knowing ahead of time), He also PREDESTINED. (Tthis means acting to ensure a certain destiny -- the direct answer to your question. My definition of predestination is acting before a certain "destiny" to ensure that the planned "destiny" takes place.) The passage septarates the two: God not only KNOWS what we will do, He also ACTS in our life to bring about a certain destiny - salvation for the chosen. Now, it should be stated that GOD knows and acts -- we do not have all the knowledge, so for us it is a choice. As I've repeatedly stated throughout this thread and another like it, is isn't that I see it as either/or -- I believe that predestination TRUMPS -- not DOES AWAY WITH -- our choices. God will do whatever it takes to ensure that we make the choice He wants us to make. But, I DO go further than a parent doing everything for a child, and then being disappointed by a child's poor choice. If God gives us the gifts of repentance (2 Timothy 2:25), faith and grace (Ephesians 2:8-9), and the Holy Spirit is convicting us of sin (John 16:8), And the Father is drawing us to Himself (John 6:44, 65) when the time comes, we WILL say the right words, since He predestinated us to say them. However, we don't know everything so from our viewpoint, we choose to say those words. Thus, we choose to open the door to heaven, with God on the other side saying "Right on time." I don't know if that explains things, (but I'm sure it will lead to other questions) -- the problem being that I'm only human. I do not believe the Bible lies, or contradicts itself, and it speaks of both, so that's how I see them working together.

I hope this answers your question from my point of view.

[Rhonda Lou]

"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Regardless of what people think will happen with belief in predestination,

Again, mutually exclusive. Predestination of believers does not need the Word, does not need to hear and surely does not require faith. If it did, it is not degreed, it is not predestination. You couch all your explanation in the will of man, yet think you are predestined to do so. Impossible.

It might be better to study the real meaing of predestination. What it means to have something ordained from the beginning. A act by decree, not choice. They are polar opposites.

And what is your understanding of the words translated into English as predestined? (Eph. 1)

I re-read what Thaddeus said, regarding what I said. You mentioned Ephesians 1. I'll start at verse 3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." You asked what this means to me, along with the passage which says "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." I tried to explain an overview in my last post, but I'll try to tie just these verses together.

Paul says, in essence, Blessed be God, who blessed "us" (so the "us" is believers) with every spiritual blessing -- in the same way that He "chose" us believers before the foundation of time. This means quite simply that He chose us. Thaddeus is correct that the word predestination is not used here, but it says He "chose" those of us who would be believers. Now, how do we become believers, since we are now chosen, and God gets His way? From God's point of view, He works in our lives to bring us to salvation. I cited some verses in the last post, I'll quote them here:

God convicts us of sin. And when He, the Helper comes, He will CONVICT THE WORLD of sin. (John 16:8). We are part of the world.

God draws us to Himself: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day...And He said, 'Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My father." (John 6:44, 65)

Repentance is a gift of God. "And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will GRANT THEIR REPENTANCE, so that they may know the truth." (2 Timothy 2:24-25).

He gives us grace and faith. "For by GRACE you have been saved through FAITH, AND THIS NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT of God (both the grace and the faith), not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

"Now when the Gentiles heard this they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord AND AS MANY AS HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED." (Acts 13:48).

I just quoted from Paul, Jesus, and Luke. Paul is not the only one who taught "predestination". The Bible teaches it. Now, what I just quoted is from GOD'S point of view, not ours. We do not have all the information. We do not know what thoughts God is directing, we don't know who He allows in our path and who He draws away. We don't know which circumstances He uses to draw us to Him, convict us of sin, bring us to repentance, or pray the believer's prayer. We make choices on what we DO know.

This begins when we feel convicted of sin. We hear the gospel. This is where "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." It is God who made us feel convicted, and put someone in our lives to tell us the gospel, but we hear it, and we choose to repent. God granted the gift of repentance, but we repent. We believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, and confess with our lips that Jesus is Lord, making Him Lord, and submitting to His will. God GAVE us this gift of faith, as surely as Jesus paid the penalty for death and lives to overcome the power of sin and of death. God does it all from start to finish, and in a sense, we're along for the ride. But we do not know everything He's doing, so from our perspective we make choices based on the information we do have. Both are evident: predestination and "free" will (it cost God a LOT). But His predestination trumps our free will. Again, foreknowing is knowing ahead of time; predestination is acting BEFOREHAND to bring about a pre-planned destiny. Does this help?

[Fraught]

I am going to attempt to provide unity here by saying something quite controversial. You are ALL correct. According to Philip Mauro in his book 'God's Pilgrims: Their Dangers, Their Resources, Their Rewards:

It is not easy for us to harmonize in our minds the doctrine of the sovereignty of God in the election of His saints, and that of the responsibility of those to whom the Gospel of God's grace is preached to repent and believe that Gospel. But the doctrine of God's election, and the doctrine of men's freewill and responsibility, are both clearly taught in the Word of God. Our part, therefore, is not to exercise our ingenuity in trying to reconcile those doctrines, but simply to believe them.

Amen!

[Thaddaeus]

Rhonda Lou and Kjn,

I'll answer your question Kjn, by using the explanation of Rhonda Lou to show just what it does not mean and what it does mean.

here is Rhonda answer or part of it...

Thaddeus is correct that the word predestination is not used here, but it says He "chose" those of us who would be believers. Now, how do we become believers, since we are now chosen, and God gets His way? From God's point of view, He works in our lives to bring us to salvation. I cited some verses in the last post, I'll quote them here:

It also does not say He chose us who would be beleivers. It says He chose us IN Christ. Those that would be IN Christ, He chose to predestinate that they would be conformed to the image of His Son. One needs to be IN Christ first, in order to be chosen or predestinated to be a recipient of that transformation. God foreknew those who would be IN Christ, but did not predestinate them to be there. Follow the language without putting your suppositions in front of them.

"Now when the Gentiles heard this they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord AND AS MANY AS HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED." (Acts 13:48).

This has nothing to do with predestination of believers either. What you described in several paragraphs above this statement, Rhonda, is what this phrase means. God, through the Holy Spirit is working in this world to convict all men of their sin. He is actively calling all men to repentance. This is an external working of God upon mankind. This is what the word "appointed" means, to be disposed to action from an external source. Those predisposed to believe, believed. That is what it means. Since God calls all men, then we are disposed to believe if our own desires agree or accept that leading. It is always man that decides, God calls, man drinks, learns, listens, follow, believes.

But His predestination trumps our free will. Again, foreknowing is knowing ahead of time; predestination is acting BEFOREHAND to bring about a pre-planned destiny. Does this help?

not quite. Foreknowledge has nothing to do with predestination. One does not lead from, nor is the cause of the other. Christ was predestined to be the Savior of the World. God predestined that those that believe would receive special favors from Him. But believers are foreknown, but are not predestined to be believers. Man chooses to believe. God just knows what that decision would be. He did not need to ordain that decision.

[Thaddaeus]

Fraught

It is not easy for us to harmonize in our minds the doctrine of the sovereignty of God in the election of His saints, and that of the responsibility of those to whom the Gospel of God's grace is preached to repent and believe that Gospel. But the doctrine of God's election, and the doctrine of men's freewill and responsibility, are both clearly taught in the Word of God. Our part, therefore, is not to exercise our ingenuity in trying to reconcile those doctrines, but simply to believe them.

it is very hard to harmonize if that is what one must do.

But, this man does not understand the meaning either, thus his concept is to accept both and accept them as contradictions.

[Thaddaeus]

Rhonda Lou,

One other thing, after reading your post again.

God not only KNOWS what we will do, He also ACTS in our life to bring about a certain destiny - salvation for the chosen. Now, it should be stated that GOD knows and acts

Another area which is related but also confused by many is God providence. God acts within His created order to bring about His plan. But God does not need to damage or injure man's free will in order to direct the steps of man.

We do this to each other every day in every day occurances. I can easily redirect your will or actions by external influences that does not harm or force your will. The will is a rational part of man's being. Thus, take traffic for example which most are familiar with. The road department wants to work on a part of the road so they detour you. It is your desire and will to have taken this route every day for years. but now you come to a detour sign. You can still do your will or desire and continue disregarding the detour to your injury possibly, or you will decide for your betterment to take the detour. It was still you choice. You might have even taken a different detour or if you knew ahead of time a whole different route.

Thus God direct our paths and guides us, but he does not need to ordain our actions. God explains and has given us His will for us. We can either work with Him, or reject His plan for us. There are consequences either way.

[Fraught]

Fraught

It is not easy for us to harmonize in our minds the doctrine of the sovereignty of God in the election of His saints, and that of the responsibility of those to whom the Gospel of God's grace is preached to repent and believe that Gospel. But the doctrine of God's election, and the doctrine of men's freewill and responsibility, are both clearly taught in the Word of God. Our part, therefore, is not to exercise our ingenuity in trying to reconcile those doctrines, but simply to believe them.

it is very hard to harmonize if that is what one must do.

But, this man does not understand the meaning either, thus his concept is to accept both and accept them as contradictions.

not totally contradictory. we may say we have chosen to follow God but we will never know if it is because we were predestined to. this is a Truth of God we accept because He said so.

[Thaddaeus]

Fraught,

not totally contradictory. we may say we have chosen to follow God but we will never know if it is because we were predestined to. this is a Truth of God we accept because He said so.

I'm not sure why you need to see it as necessary even.

We do know because of several things given to us in Scripture. We know we were not predestined to believe. First, it would make God's call to all men disingenuous as well as a respector of persons. When God says that He desires all men to know Him, He could have then just decreed (predestinated) them to guarantee that desire become fact.

Also, it would deny the purpose of our very existance. To be free creatures responding to our creator. Also, the judgement would be a mockery. Those are the scriptural reasons on the top of my head, that would deny the predestination of believers.

[Diolectic]

Some say that those who arer not predestind to salvation can not obey HIS command because HE will not give them the ability or the will to obey(that is a devilish tyrant).

Please, tell me why God would command to repent and have faith but not give the ability of will to obey the command?

Example:

God:

Recieve My Son to be forgiven of your sin. However, I will not give you the will to do that because I did not predestin you for that, therefore, I will conemn you for not obeying me.

[Rhonda Lou]

Rhonda Lou and Kjn,

I'll answer your question Kjn, by using the explanation of Rhonda Lou to show just what it does not mean and what it does mean.

here is Rhonda answer or part of it...

Thaddeus is correct that the word predestination is not used here, but it says He "chose" those of us who would be believers. Now, how do we become believers, since we are now chosen, and God gets His way? From God's point of view, He works in our lives to bring us to salvation. I cited some verses in the last post, I'll quote them here:

It also does not say He chose us who would be beleivers. It says He chose us IN Christ. Those that would be IN Christ, He chose to predestinate that they would be conformed to the image of His Son. One needs to be IN Christ first, in order to be chosen or predestinated to be a recipient of that transformation. God foreknew those who would be IN Christ, but did not predestinate them to be there. Follow the language without putting your suppositions in front of them.

"Now when the Gentiles heard this they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord AND AS MANY AS HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED." (Acts 13:48).

This has nothing to do with predestination of believers either. What you described in several paragraphs above this statement, Rhonda, is what this phrase means. God, through the Holy Spirit is working in this world to convict all men of their sin. He is actively calling all men to repentance. This is an external working of God upon mankind. This is what the word "appointed" means, to be disposed to action from an external source. Those predisposed to believe, believed. That is what it means. Since God calls all men, then we are disposed to believe if our own desires agree or accept that leading. It is always man that decides, God calls, man drinks, learns, listens, follow, believes.

But His predestination trumps our free will. Again, foreknowing is knowing ahead of time; predestination is acting BEFOREHAND to bring about a pre-planned destiny. Does this help?

not quite. Foreknowledge has nothing to do with predestination. One does not lead from, nor is the cause of the other. Christ was predestined to be the Savior of the World. God predestined that those that believe would receive special favors from Him. But believers are foreknown, but are not predestined to be believers. Man chooses to believe. God just knows what that decision would be. He did not need to ordain that decision.

Thaddeus,

I'm sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner. I've stated what I've believed throughout this thread. To respond to your points. Ephesians 1:1-4 says, in the Douay-Rheims Catholic Study Bible:

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the will of God, to all the saints who are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus. 2 Grace be to you, and peace from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with spiritual blessings in heavenly places, in Christ: 4 As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity. 5 Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will:

Paul is writing to all of the saints (believers) in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ in the rest of the world. He said, "Blessed be the God...who hath blessed us (believers)..in Christ." Only believers are "in Christ". At least I believe that only believers are "in Christ". According to Romans 5, we are either in Adam or in Christ -- we have original sin, or a new nature. You seemed to suggest we could be "in Christ", yet not a believer, when you said, "One needs to be IN Christ first, in order to be chosen or predestinated to be a recipient of that transformation." But, I've never seen evidence that we become a believer (in Christ), and then God predestinates us to become a believer. This could be a fundamental difficulty in coming to an understanding of what we believe about predestination, or even salvation. I believe the passage from Ephesians 1 is saying this: He chose us (believers) in Him before the foundation of the world for the purpose of being holy and unspotted in His sight. HE hath PREDESTINED US into the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto Himself ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIS WILL.

Then you said, about Acts 13:38, "This is what the word "appointed" means, to be disposed to action from an external source. Those predisposed to believe, believed. That is what it means " That is exactly what I said it meant. We are predisposed to action (acceptance of Jessus) from an external source (God.) Those predisposed to believe (those God called or chose) to believe, believed. God chose me to believe, He worked in my life, which was predisposed to believe, and at the right moment, I believed. But I didn't know I was predisposed to belief, so from my perspective it was a choice I made. The only difference between you and me on this issue is that I believe that God was working in the background to ensure that when the time came I made the right decision. I take comfort in that fact, because I would never have arrived otherwise.

Now, for Romans 8:29-30: 29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren. 30 And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.

About this passage, you said, "Foreknowledge has nothing to do with predestination. One does not lead from, nor is the cause of the other. Christ was predestined to be the Savior of the World. God predestined that those that believe would receive special favors from Him. But believers are foreknown, but are not predestined to be believers. Man chooses to believe. God just knows what that decision would be. He did not need to ordain that decision."

My point was that - at the very least -- foreknowledge and predestination are two separate things. This verse is the reason I believe they ARE two separate things -- they are listed separately. You confirmed that when you said that foreknowledge has nothing to do with predestination. You agree they are separate. Yet the passage says that for whom HE foreknew, HE also predestinated, to be conformed to the image of His Son (Ephesians 1 says :that he might be holy and unspotless": the same thing). It also seems to me to be saying that the one leads to the next: whom HE foreknew, HE predestinated, HE called, HE justified, HE glorified. (Glorification will happen in heaven, but in Paul's mind, and the Holy Spirit's inspiration, it is a "done deal"). In essence, this is saying that GOD did all of the work. Again, we will never know what God has done in our lives, so from our perspective, we are making the decisions, but the Bible clearly says that God does the work of salvation, and we are the recipients of His work.

In essence, I still believe the Bible teaches both predestination and free will. Maybe my version is wrong (His perspective: predestination/my perspective: choice), but I am more interested in the Bible verses themselves -- what CAN be known from the Bible. My guesses are not inspired. God's word is inspired. And God's word says that God foreknew, predestined, called, chose, appointed, justified, and glorified us -- not only Paul's words, but Jesus in John 6:44, 65, and Luke in Acts 13:48, and all of the other passages I've quoted throuout this thread I'm not saying that man has no free will, I'm just saying that to deny that God works in our lives to bring us to faith, and give us the faith, and the repentance, is to deny clear-cut Scriptures and to make God less powerful and sovereign than He is. I understand others might disagree with my interpretation of how predestination and choice "work together", but I have a difficult time understanding how one can say that those Scriptures about predestination mean something other than what they actually say. I also accept the "choice" scriptures being ones of "choice". From what I see in the Scriptures, it is not a "either/or" deal, but a "both" deal.