Poll for atheists if you don't mind

[kari21]

You do not have the right to kill the weak.

From an evolutionary point of view...sure I do!

Atheism all boils down to the survival of the fittest.

Evolution sure does. The weak die off (or are killed) and the strong survive.

You are saying that an evolutionist needs to follow one ethical law; survival of the fittest. This is hogwash.

I'm saying from one who believes in evolution, and no God-given laws, you have no right to try to impart ANY morality. Nature is pitiless...

Richard Dawkins said: The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference. As that unhappy poet A.E. Housman put it: For Nature, heartless, witless Nature Will neither care nor know. DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. -River out of Eden (1995)

Why do you not believe in science, empirics, reason, rational thought, logic, and intelligence?

By using evolutionary thought against you?

Get off your high horse. If we are all just "animals" as evolution teaches, we also have no morality.

[Secularist]

You do not have the right to kill the weak.

From an evolutionary point of view...sure I do!

Did you forgot that humans have the ability to ration. I observe that ration continuously eludes you. Again, I ask if you disregard reason, rational, empirics, science, critical thought, and intelligence. Killing under the survival of the fittest is for food and nurture. You have failed to show how killing another human being fits into survival of the fittest. It seems like you think we hunt each other, kill each other, and commit act of cannibalism. You thinking is perverse.

I'm saying from one who believes in evolution, and no God-given laws, you have no right to try to impart ANY morality. Nature is pitiless...

Can you please prove your God based on logic, reason, empirics, positive proofs? First you must prove your God exists before you state that they are God-given laws. I have yet to see you prove God. Then again, you ignore reason.

Can you please tell me how morals and ethics were constructed outside of your God? Please elaborate on the Ancient Greeks, who they gave birth to the scientific method, which you have no use for. Please expand further on the particular verse where the Bible explains the scientific method. Then enlighten us on the verse where the Bible guides us on how to use the scientific method to gain a better understanding of our world.

Carl Sagan said: The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Can you please explain your ego. Why do you think the Earth is center stage in a cosmic play between good and evil?

Get off your high horse. If we are all just "animals" as evolution teaches, we also have no morality.

Do you have any knowledge of science at all? An animal is any of a kingdom (Animalia) of living things including many-celled organisms and often many of the single-celled ones (as protozoans) that typically differ from plants in having cells without cellulose walls, in lacking chlorophyll and the capacity for photosynthesis, in requiring more complex food materials (as proteins), in being organized to a greater degree of complexity, and in having the capacity for spontaneous movement and rapid motor responses to stimulation.

I find that you are constantly rude and filled with biased judgment. Is this what the Bible teaches you?

Edited September 16, 2007 by Secularist

[kari21]

Killing under the survival of the fittest is for food and nurture. You have failed to show how killing another human being fits into survival of the fittest. It seems like you think we hunt each other, kill each other, and commit act of cannibalism. You thinking is perverse.

My point, YET AGAIN, is if I choose to kill those that are weaker than me, from a naturalistic point of view, where GOD -GIVEN MORALITY does not come into play, I can DO it, and you CANNOT tell me it is WRONG!

If evolution is WITHOUT morals and is indeed pitiless, I, as just another animal, CAN DO WHAT I PLEASE!

You have NO moral authority to claim otherwise! If morality is selective, as evolutionist teach, and there is no final moral authority outside of man, what I do is my business, just as what you do is yours. I cannot tell you what you do is right or wrong, nor can you tell me!

First you must prove your God exists before you state that they are God-given laws. I have yet to see you prove God. Then again, you ignore reason.

I don't have to prove God...because I'm debating from the evolutionary side. I am proving that what you believe in has no moral base...so you cannot come to these boards and argue from any moral perspective.

Can you please tell me how morals and ethics were constructed outside of your God?

Wouldn't that be YOUR dept. Mr Secularist?

Can you please explain your ego. Why do you think the Earth is center stage in a cosmic play between good and evil?

Please c/p where I said that.

Do you have any knowledge of science at all?

I'm really good at Cosmology.

An animal is any of a kingdom (Animalia) of living things including many-celled organisms and often many of the single-celled ones (as protozoans) that typically differ from plants in having cells without cellulose walls, in lacking chlorophyll and the capacity for photosynthesis, in requiring more complex food materials (as proteins), in being organized to a greater degree of complexity, and in having the capacity for spontaneous movement and rapid motor responses to stimulation.

Are you trying to impress? (more ego-stroking). What does that rant have to do with morality in nature?

I find that you are constantly rude...

Awwww....here's a balloon and a bozo button. Feel better now?

....and filled with biased judgment.

Wow....just like a lot of atheists I know....

Is this what the Bible teaches you?

Why doncha read it and see for yourself.

Just so you know, the Bible is filled with examples of sarcasm and insults. When John the Baptist and Jesus called some people a "brood of vipers" they weren't being nice.

Elijah mocked the prophets of Baal asking "Perhaps he is on the toilet and is busy" when they got no reply from their false God.

So, I guess I'm in good company!

[Secularist]

My point, YET AGAIN, is if I choose to kill those that are weaker than me, from a naturalistic point of view, where GOD -GIVEN MORALITY does not come into play, I can DO it, and you CANNOT tell me it is WRONG!

Wow. You continue in your groove of perversity. The theory of natural selection is not murderous and cannibalistic.

If evolution is WITHOUT morals and is indeed pitiless, I, as just another animal, CAN DO WHAT I PLEASE!

The theory of evolution is not an ethical system. Stop your juvenile rage.

You have NO moral authority to claim otherwise! If morality is selective, as evolutionist teach, and there is no final moral authority outside of man, what I do is my business, just as what you do is yours. I cannot tell you what you do is right or wrong, nor can you tell me!

I do not have a moral authority, but I do have personal responsibility. If I ever catch you or anyone starving their child to death, then I will speak up. Your are arguments are myopic.

I don't have to prove God...because I'm debating from the evolutionary side. I am proving that what you believe in has no moral base...so you cannot come to these boards and argue from any moral perspective.

You are beginning to become of a concern. I am beginning to become frighten by your thinking. It is becoming dangerous, intolerant, and bigotry.

You must back up your claim that I have no right to critically evaluate morals. Natural selection is not an ethical system. Why do you constantly think so? Your claims are bordering on absurdity.

Wouldn't that be YOUR dept. Mr Secularist?

The onus is on you. Again you have superstition and I have reason. I am chalking you up as a minority and not the Christian norm. I will not judge Christianity by your actions alone.

Please c/p where I said that.

You keep thinking that I am immorally inferior to you. Please explain your ego.

I'm really good at Cosmology.

Ok, then enlighten us. Please give us a detailed analysis of the inflationary period. Highlight any potential underdetermination and theory-ladenness issues with the contemporaneous cosmological theories.

What does that rant have to do with morality in nature?

This is your rant, and not mine.

[kari21]

OK, my OUOTE feature doesn't seem to be working this morning, so all of Secularist's Quotes will be underlined.

Wow. You continue in your groove of perversity. The theory of natural selection is not murderous and cannibalistic.

No, I guess you could call nature red in tooth and claw rather pretty, in a way...

I do not have a moral authority

Thanks for finally admitting that. As an evolutionist, how could you?

but I do have personal responsibility.

As do we all. My point is, and has always been, that from an evolutionary atheistic perspective, you have no right to tell anyone else what they are doing is wrong. Morality is selective without God.

If I ever catch you or anyone starving their child to death, then I will speak up.

Wow. AGAIN with the babies...and I love how you keep comparing Christianity to starving babies, or forcing them to crawl over broken glass. Did you have a messed up childhood, or WHAT?

....oh, and I haven't starved a baby for weeks now....

Your are arguments are myopic.

Boy, you sure love to use that word! I see just fine. So much so, I can see through your intentions.

You are beginning to become of a concern. I am beginning to become frighten by your thinking.

BOO!

It is becoming dangerous, intolerant, and bigotry.

Again, just like some atheists I know....

You must back up your claim that I have no right to critically evaluate morals.

I did...many, many times....gosh, it's like beating a dead cat with you. Sure, it's fun for a time, but it gets boring after awhile...

Natural selection is not an ethical system.

THANK-YOU!!! ('bout time! Sheesh)

Why do you constantly think so? Your claims are bordering on absurdity.

Ummmm....I never said it was ethical from an evolutionary standpoint. "Nature" doesn't care about ethics OR morality! Do you just skim through these?

The onus is on you.

Nope. You came to OUR house, genius.

Again you have superstition and I have reason. I am chalking you up as a minority and not the Christian norm. I will not judge Christianity by your actions alone.

How merciful of you, sire!

Ask other Christians if there is "morality" in nature....

You keep thinking that I am immorally inferior to you. Please explain your ego

No, again you are putting words in my mouth. I said as one who believes in evolution, you have no RIGHT to make moral judgments on others because you have no moral foundation in nature. Christians have our moral foundation in God, whom we believe is the moral law giver...you have...what? An ape-like ancestor?

Ok, then enlighten us. Please give us a detailed analysis of the inflationary period. Highlight any potential underdetermination and theory-ladenness issues with the contemporaneous cosmological theories.

Wow. You act like you are a schoolmaster and I have to do some assignment for you. Sorry, I'm not here to impress you. Do you think Christians OWE you something?

Oh...but all those big words you just used hurt my widdle head!

This is your rant, and not mine.

It was YOU who went off on that spiel that had NOTHING to do with what we were talking about. You were frustrated and needed to stroke your own ego.

[Secularist]

Thanks for finally admitting that. As an evolutionist, how could you?

You do not have moral authority either. Anyone who thinks the Earth was created in six and is 6,000 years olds is a concern and not reasonable. I find your arguments unreasonable, filled with emotion and bigotry.

As do we all. My point is, and has always been, that from an evolutionary atheistic perspective, you have no right to tell anyone else what they are doing is wrong. Morality is selective without God.

Until you prove God, you Christian principles are the fabrication of man.

I did...many, many times....gosh, it's like beating a dead cat with you. Sure, it's fun for a time, but it gets boring after awhile...

Why do you constantly say that anyone who believe in evolution should go around and kill the weak? Your statement is ludicrous. Go to the library and check out books about ethics. Not all ethical systems come from your God.

Ummmm....I never said it was ethical from an evolutionary standpoint. "Nature" doesn't care about ethics OR morality! Do you just skim through these?

Nature created us, and humans care about morality.

Nope. You came to OUR house, genius.

You continue to be illogical. If you appreciate science, then the onus is on you.

How merciful of you, sire!

Why are you so rude and juvenile?

No, again you are putting words in my mouth. I said as one who believes in evolution, you have no RIGHT to make moral judgments on others because you have no moral foundation in nature. Christians have our moral foundation in God, whom we believe is the moral law giver...you have...what? An ape-like ancestor?

Morality exists outside of your God. Why do you think otherwise? Why do you not believe in reason, evidence, empirics, and science.

Wow. You act like you are a schoolmaster and I have to do some assignment for you. Sorry, I'm not here to impress you. Do you think Christians OWE you something?

You said that you like cosmology. I was hoping that you could say something intelligent on the subject. Was this to much to ask?

Oh...but all those big words you just used hurt my widdle head!

It hurts to think, eh?

[Joshua-777]

You do not have moral authority either. Anyone who thinks the Earth was created in six and is 6,000 years olds is a concern and not reasonable. I find your arguments unreasonable, filled with emotion and bigotry.

Hi, Why is it not reasonable for someone to believe the earth was created in six days and is 6,000 years old? I agree, that the earth could be older, Considering the word for days in Genesis is yom, which could mean either literal days, or ages. Also it says the earth lay void and dormant and does not give a time period how long it was since the earth or the universe was created, I personally believe that the days in Genesis is literal, for many reasons, but I agree I can be wrong, I also believe the earth and universe was created millions of years before the creation of life, it gives no time period for Genesis 1:1

Until you prove God, you Christian principles are the fabrication of man.

The same can be said about evolution, there are flaws, and no absolute truths in evolution, also nothing is observable and repeated considering it takes millions and millions of years for something to evolve and no one has been alive that long to observe it, also entropy makes it a little more impossible.

Why do you constantly say that anyone who believe in evolution should go around and kill the weak? Your statement is ludicrous. Go to the library and check out books about ethics. Not all ethical systems come from your God.

Many people I know believe in evolution and God at the same time, I personally don't but it's all about Jesus and his grace in our lives. I do believe Gods laws are written in our hearts whether we know God or not, our conscience upholds his law, I agree that not all ethical systems come from our God, only the common state of morality. Early pagan ethical systems lacked morality, as they would sacrifice their children to Baal, they lacked morality, that was not from God.

Nature created us, and humans care about morality.

Once again this is not an absolute, This is your opinion, and your perception of fact, I can very well say that God created us with morality in our conscience, which solves the great gap of how our morality developed.

Morality exists outside of your God. Why do you think otherwise? Why do you not believe in reason, evidence, empirics, and science.

I believe that God planted his laws in our hearts, I do believe in reason, evidence, empirics, and I do believe in observable science, I also believe in God, and I believe in personal experience, I know a relationship with Christ is a constant personal experience with the Living God.

[kari21]

You do not have moral authority either.

Sure I do. At least I have a foundation for it from my Christian perspective. While you have no foundation for moral authority from a naturalistic foundation....

I find your arguments unreasonable, filled with emotion and bigotry.

Wahhhhh!!!!! Weave me awone! All you evolutionist are da same!

Until you prove God, you Christian principles are the fabrication of man.

Again, I don't HAVE to prove a thing to you. God has already given you all the proof you need. Do you really think Christians OWE you an explanation for anything? It's obvious that your mind is made up....and like Abraham said to the rich man in Hades: IF THEY (that's you) HEAR NOT MOSES AND THE PROPHETS (That is, they don't believe the Bible, which is God's Word), NEITHER WILL THEY BE PERSUADED, THOUGH ONE ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

Your heart is waxed cold...and you wouldn't believe even if one came back from the dead and told you it was all true.

Why do you constantly say that anyone who believe in evolution should go around and kill the weak? Your statement is ludicrous. Go to the library and check out books about ethics. Not all ethical systems come from your God.

Do you know what the word "hypothetical" means? From a naturalistic perspective, I said you COULD. If we are all truly just animals, it would be in our nature (through natural selection) to kill the weak so that the strong could survive. The weak die, so that the strong may live....

Nature created us, and humans care about morality.

Then you are going AGAINST NATURE. Nature doesn't CARE about morality. Red in tooth and claw, remember?

Why are you so rude and juvenile?

I'm just a cat playing with a mouse. Which is also very naturalistic.

It hurts to think, eh?

No...it hurts educating you on your own beliefs.

[kari21]

Put another way...Hitler considered the Jews a "virus" (which kinda reminds me of what Richard Dawkins said when he stated that belief in God was a virus), anyway, Hitler took Natural Selection to his own logical conclusion, which was eradicate this "virus" so that the Aryan stock would not be weakened. That's why he made it against the law for German Aryans to breed with Jews. And you, as an evoultionary atheist, have no moral basis to say that Hitler murdering all of those Jews was wrong. With atheistic naturalism, all morality is subjective. And if you say morality is based on majority concensus - what if the majority of people thought killing Jews was a great idea? Would you still support it? If not, you would fall back onto what I have already proved - morality is subjective from an evolutionary standpoint.

Look at another end result of such thinking - Look at what those two kids who killed their classmates at Columbine high school thought. They thought they were an "evolutionary step above" all other people. One even wore a shirt on the day of the massacre that said "Natural Selection."

Christians can say that murder is wrong from the standpoint that God - the ultimate lawgiver- said so. You can only say it's wrong from your own standpoint, which doesn't make what you believe true. Another may say what those two did was right, and you have no right to say otherwise because you would be pushing your personal morality on them.

Do you think a tiger gives a wit when it kills a mother gazelle, leaving her offspring without their mother? Does a gorilla contemplate the subject of murder when it kills a rival gorilla? There is no "morality" in nature. You have no moral foundation other than yourself to point at, as you are just another evolved animal.

[Secularist]

This conversation has turned into complete absurdity. I'll be happy to to civilly and intelligently discuss ethics who is sincerely open to the idea. I am not going to continue in this groove of perversity with someone telling that the only ethical choice I have to kill the weak or be killed. This is one of the most asinine and sophomoric claims that I have heard in a long time. The theory of evolution is a scientific theory. It is not an ethical system.

Edited September 18, 2007 by Secularist