Why do I need your God?

[Anguspure]

A world with no choice between a relationship with the Creator and something else is not a world with free choice is it?

But what about Heaven? Will those there still have free will? If so, can they sin and get thrown from Heaven into hell?

There must be freewill in eternity if there is to be Love. Why would Love be any different in eternity?

The Bible does say that sin and death will eventually find their end , so I'm not sure what the consequence of making a choice to distrust God will be in His new world.

Your view of heaven and hell seems to be very Greek. Heaven is where humanity becomes what it was meant to be. Hell is where those who don't want to be part of this find their 2nd death.

[Anguspure]

A world with no choice between a relationship with the Creator and something else is not a world with free choice is it?

But what about Heaven? Will those there still have free will? If so, can they sin and get thrown from Heaven into hell?

There must be freewill in eternity if there is to be Love. Why would Love be any different in eternity?

The Bible does say that sin and death will eventually find their end , so I'm not sure what the consequence of making a choice to distrust God will be in His new world.

Your view of heaven and hell seems to be very Greek. Heaven is where humanity becomes what it was meant to be. Hell is where those who don't want to be part of this find their 2nd death.

[boldlion]

Why do I need your God to live a healthy, happy, meaningful life?

Your life that you now live is temporary. You have two options. Live forever in peace and happiness or perish in eternal torment. (Yes, 'the lake of fire' is real, very real).

Friend, God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. You are on this forum for a reason and you are asking this question for a reason. If you get 'born again', then God will give you health, happiness and meaning in your current life. But consider the meaning and happiness that you will have for all eternity !! The promises of God for those that are for Him are too great to miss out.

But Jesus Christ is coming back very very soon !! Your time on this earth is running out fast ! We have to be ready for Him.

[Guest SDGS]

Your view of heaven and hell seems to be very Greek. Heaven is where humanity becomes what it was meant to be. Hell is where those who don't want to be part of this find their 2nd death.

I don't understand what that means. I have never studied Greek. I don't understand anout second death. We live and we die.

If I understand this part correctly, if we accept Jesus, then we live in Heaven. But if we are still free will, it feels like it could become chaotic. I cannot get my mind around what Heaven would be like.

I have been honest and you guys have responded honestly and not gotten angry, so I am going to say this too. There are some Christians that make people want to run, or shout back. They are pushy with "accept Jesus or burn in hell", (you must know what I mean, have seen those types), and I just think "welll, to me spending eternity with them would be hell". To me, forever with Benny Henn, Jerry Fallwell, ect to name a few,,, awful.

I don't know how to learn what is right because I honestly know nothing but what I am told. That is why I am upset that the pastor and his wife are leaving. He did try to set me up with a lady to help me, but these questions made her so mad she quit and refused to speak to me ever again. I just felt, "well, I must not be good enough". They get so angry when I ask, but how else can I learn, if not asking those well grounded in their faith?

I understand logically about Jesus, but I have not been able to make myself believe, feel it, something. Yet, I am still here, still seeking and asking questions, so some part of me must believe something.

Edited July 5, 2011 by SDGS

[mizzdy]

Your view of heaven and hell seems to be very Greek. Heaven is where humanity becomes what it was meant to be. Hell is where those who don't want to be part of this find their 2nd death.

I don't understand what that means. I have never studied Greek. I don't understand anout second death. We live and we die.

If I understand this part correctly, if we accept Jesus, then we live in Heaven. But if we are still free will, it feels like it could become chaotic. I cannot get my mind around what Heaven would be like.

I have been honest and you guys have responded honestly and not gotten angry, so I am going to say this too. There are some Christians that make people want to run, or shout back. They are pushy with "accept Jesus or burn in hell", (you must know what I mean, have seen those types), and I just think "welll, to me spending eternity with them would be hell". To me, forever with Benny Henn, Jerry Fallwell, ect to name a few,,, awful.

I don't know how to learn what is right because I honestly know nothing but what I am told. That is why I am upset that the pastor and his wife are leaving. He did try to set me up with a lady to help me, but these questions made her so mad she quit and refused to speak to me ever again. I just felt, "well, I must not be good enough". They get so angry when I ask, but how else can I learn, if not asking those well grounded in their faith?

I understand logically about Jesus, but I have not been able to make myself believe, feel it, something. Yet, I am still here, still seeking and asking questions, so some part of me must believe something.

Hi SDGS,

I believe God knew all that would happen but He loved His creation so much that He gave them the choice to live in His light or perish in the dark. Its really a simple message, its about a choice, God put that tree there so His creation could choose who they would listen to, to see the condition of ones heart in that choice. Once to choose we are like little children trying to please our parents, then we calm down a bit and ask questions which is perfectly! acceptable we are encouraged to seek His truth, can't do that without some serious questions and searching. After we are raised into our glorified bodies that choice was already made and we are given our rewards for choosing and obeying Him, we are not carbon copies of one another after that I will still be me perfected in thought and attitude just as you will be you but made perfected also.

Sadly those kind of christians are what I used to call holy rollers when I was a kid, I had been to more than a few southern revivals in my time! lol If someone is telling you that you have! to do something I would ask why. It is true that we must confess His name, that we accept His rule in our hearts and minds so that He may begin the process of changing us to be the people that He knows we can be and will be. Anything after that well He will lead you to do by the help of the Holy Spirit. Theres no test for any of it but a change in attitude that maybe only you will notice at first then we grow a little here and there its not an instantaneous change believe me! lol Ask all the questions you need no matter how small or big you think they are we are here to help you in any way we can.

shalom,

Mizz

[Anguspure]

Your view of heaven and hell seems to be very Greek. Heaven is where humanity becomes what it was meant to be. Hell is where those who don't want to be part of this find their 2nd death.

I don't understand what that means. I have never studied Greek. I don't understand anout second death. We live and we die.

If I understand this part correctly, if we accept Jesus, then we live in Heaven. But if we are still free will, it feels like it could become chaotic. I cannot get my mind around what Heaven would be like.

I have been honest and you guys have responded honestly and not gotten angry, so I am going to say this too. There are some Christians that make people want to run, or shout back. They are pushy with "accept Jesus or burn in hell", (you must know what I mean, have seen those types), and I just think "welll, to me spending eternity with them would be hell". To me, forever with Benny Henn, Jerry Fallwell, ect to name a few,,, awful.

I don't know how to learn what is right because I honestly know nothing but what I am told. That is why I am upset that the pastor and his wife are leaving. He did try to set me up with a lady to help me, but these questions made her so mad she quit and refused to speak to me ever again. I just felt, "well, I must not be good enough". They get so angry when I ask, but how else can I learn, if not asking those well grounded in their faith?

I understand logically about Jesus, but I have not been able to make myself believe, feel it, something. Yet, I am still here, still seeking and asking questions, so some part of me must believe something.

Sorry to be a bother here.

Some of the more "spiritual" christian concepts seem to have their origins in Greek thought rather from the Hebrew in which our faith is founded.

The idea of Heaven being some etheral pure realm (the sitting on clouds playing on harps one) is not found in the Bible, at least not in the context of the new heavens and the new earth. The idea of a Dante's inferno style hell is also extra Biblical mythology.

My point is that the Bible is a whole lot more down to earth and iminent than the heady Greek spiritualism and than many would give it credit for, that is not to say that there aren't some difficult concepts to grasp but the essentials are simple enough for a child.

We must be careful not to judge in a way that will bring that same judgement upon ourselves (take the log out of your own eye before having a look at the chip in your brother's) but I certainly know what you mean about some repulsive acts committed by Christians. Mind you so do the offenders, once they've turned around and they will cringe at the disrepute they've brought our Lord into.

Nevertheless the proof is in the pudding. The truth is that the depth of our relationship and trust in God is revealed in our works and there is nothing that is evil that will survive in the presence of God. Good thing for the rest of us that He's keeping his distance for now.

The fruit of our relationship with God is Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness and Self Control. If the person is not displaying these traits then you can be sure there is somthing wrong with his faith.

Keep on looking mate, He will reveal himself when one of you is ready.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Anguspure

[winsomebulldog]

Your view of heaven and hell seems to be very Greek. Heaven is where humanity becomes what it was meant to be. Hell is where those who don't want to be part of this find their 2nd death.

I don't understand what that means. I have never studied Greek. I don't understand anout second death. We live and we die.

If I understand this part correctly, if we accept Jesus, then we live in Heaven. But if we are still free will, it feels like it could become chaotic. I cannot get my mind around what Heaven would be like.

I have been honest and you guys have responded honestly and not gotten angry, so I am going to say this too. There are some Christians that make people want to run, or shout back. They are pushy with "accept Jesus or burn in hell", (you must know what I mean, have seen those types), and I just think "welll, to me spending eternity with them would be hell". To me, forever with Benny Henn, Jerry Fallwell, ect to name a few,,, awful.

I don't know how to learn what is right because I honestly know nothing but what I am told. That is why I am upset that the pastor and his wife are leaving. He did try to set me up with a lady to help me, but these questions made her so mad she quit and refused to speak to me ever again. I just felt, "well, I must not be good enough". They get so angry when I ask, but how else can I learn, if not asking those well grounded in their faith?

I understand logically about Jesus, but I have not been able to make myself believe, feel it, something. Yet, I am still here, still seeking and asking questions, so some part of me must believe something.

Bless your heart. First just let me say that no sincere question should make any Christian mad. The lady you spoke of who got mad at the questions you asked likely did so for a few reasons. One, she may not truly have a gift for teaching. It's not something everyone can do. Two, she may have found that she didn't have the answers to give you and so reacted badly. Pride often gets in our way. As my pastor often says, it's perfectly fine to tell someone you don't know the answer to their question. Many times we don't want to do that, though, because we think it will make us look bad. Three, while I'm sure the pastor you've come to trust had the best of intentions in sending you to her, I have to say that sometimes people agree to do things they aren't ready for or comfortable with just to make someone else happy. I'm absolutely not trying to excuse her behavior. For all I know, she's just rude and mean, but if the pastor you trust suggested her, then it seems unlikely. She was probably just not the right person for the job.

Now, as to your questions. The "second death" is eternal separation from God. It's a scriptural thing and not something you really need to focus on right now. Just to give you the barest basics, we are all born physically and we die physically. The Bible teaches us that when we come to trust Christ as our Savior, we are "re-born" into a new life. We have a new spiritual connection with God through the Holy Spirit and that spiritual life will begin to show itself in our physical lives. (This is that whole "fruit" thing you hear Christians talk about so much. ) It means that as we grow closer to God, there should be evidence of it in our day to day lives. All this is why Christians are often referred to as "born again." Along with that second spiritual birth comes a spiritual death. It happens when someone who had rejected Christ dies physically and is eventually judged by God. They are condemned to spend eternity in hell, which is separation from God, which is called the second death in the Bible. Like I said, none of this is really important to salvation, but I thought I'd give you a basic explanation.

Now to free will in heaven. Adam and Eve were not set up to fail. They were, as others have said, given the choice to follow God or follow their own lusts. Once everything is all said and done, there will be no more sin. This is more theological depth here, but in the end, Satan and all his demons and everyone who followed him will be cast into "the lake of fire." The source of all sin will be gone. By that I mean that God is going to remake all the world. We will also be remade. The Bible says we'll be changed, given new bodies.

Honestly, I don't know exactly what that means. No one does because God didn't spend a lot of time talking about it in the Bible. He did say we'll be changed, though. I've always wondered if our minds might be changed, too. Not that we will lose free will, because as has been said, without free will there is no such thing as love. Love only exists when it is given willingly. Anything else is slavery and that kind of "life" just wouldn't fit in with Who God is. The simple truth is none of knows exactly what heaven is or how it will work. And we don't need to have those answers. If God had given us an entire book detailing exactly how it would all happen, how we'd all come to be in unity in heaven when we can barely get along now, it wouldn't change a thing. It would in no way alter the fact that we would still need Christ to get there.

I do not want to dampen your curiosity or discourage you in any way. It is evident that you are here because you have at least some belief and you are seeking a way to understand it. This is the first step. But you also need to know that the Bible plainly says that no one who is lost can understand the things of God. The only way to get there is through Jesus. It's as simple as that. Questions about heaven and death and countless other things will always exist with us. (Until we get there and get the answers. ) We all have to start with belief in God, trust in His Word, the Bible, and trust and belief in Jesus Christ as His Son. Without those things, we can't even begin to learn about or understand deeper doctrines.

The Bible makes these points as well. We're like babies when we first get saved. We need simple "food" from the Bible. Things that are easy to "digest." The Bible describes them as milk. As we grow, just like babies, we become able to take in more substantial truths from the Word. It doesn't happen over night. And sadly, I think it is a big reason why so many young Christians never really "grow up" in the faith. They need guidance and it often isn't there.

And just so you know you aren't alone, an eternity with the likes of Benny Hinn would make me nuts, too. But you should also know that just because someone says they're a Christian it doesn't mean they really are. Just this past Sunday my pastor pointed out (not for the first time) that the greatest obstacle to the spread of Christianity was "Christians." Even people who are true Christians can behave badly. Like the woman who got angry with you for asking questions.

I wish there were easy answers for you, but there aren't. Life is not easy. Following Christ isn't a ticket to a life without pain or grief or sorrow, either. But the reality is that I cannot imagine my life without God. He is the one constant that we can all rely on. He never changes. He never, ever leaves us. God is the only guarantee that can be wholly relied upon.

I've rambled and I'm sorry for that. I pray you find peace and that God will provide you with another truthful person to help guide you. Worthy isn't perfect since it's made up of all us imperfect people, but it is a good place to start. I've encountered many wonderful people here, many with great gifts for sharing God's Word. I hope you can find answers to some of your questions among us.

[winsomebulldog]

Your view of heaven and hell seems to be very Greek. Heaven is where humanity becomes what it was meant to be. Hell is where those who don't want to be part of this find their 2nd death.

I don't understand what that means. I have never studied Greek. I don't understand anout second death. We live and we die.

If I understand this part correctly, if we accept Jesus, then we live in Heaven. But if we are still free will, it feels like it could become chaotic. I cannot get my mind around what Heaven would be like.

I have been honest and you guys have responded honestly and not gotten angry, so I am going to say this too. There are some Christians that make people want to run, or shout back. They are pushy with "accept Jesus or burn in hell", (you must know what I mean, have seen those types), and I just think "welll, to me spending eternity with them would be hell". To me, forever with Benny Henn, Jerry Fallwell, ect to name a few,,, awful.

I don't know how to learn what is right because I honestly know nothing but what I am told. That is why I am upset that the pastor and his wife are leaving. He did try to set me up with a lady to help me, but these questions made her so mad she quit and refused to speak to me ever again. I just felt, "well, I must not be good enough". They get so angry when I ask, but how else can I learn, if not asking those well grounded in their faith?

I understand logically about Jesus, but I have not been able to make myself believe, feel it, something. Yet, I am still here, still seeking and asking questions, so some part of me must believe something.

Hi SDGS,

I believe God knew all that would happen but He loved His creation so much that He gave them the choice to live in His light or perish in the dark. Its really a simple message, its about a choice, God put that tree there so His creation could choose who they would listen to, to see the condition of ones heart in that choice. Once to choose we are like little children trying to please our parents, then we calm down a bit and ask questions which is perfectly! acceptable we are encouraged to seek His truth, can't do that without some serious questions and searching. After we are raised into our glorified bodies that choice was already made and we are given our rewards for choosing and obeying Him, we are not carbon copies of one another after that I will still be me perfected in thought and attitude just as you will be you but made perfected also.

Sadly those kind of christians are what I used to call holy rollers when I was a kid, I had been to more than a few southern revivals in my time! lol If someone is telling you that you have! to do something I would ask why. It is true that we must confess His name, that we accept His rule in our hearts and minds so that He may begin the process of changing us to be the people that He knows we can be and will be. Anything after that well He will lead you to do by the help of the Holy Spirit. Theres no test for any of it but a change in attitude that maybe only you will notice at first then we grow a little here and there its not an instantaneous change believe me! lol Ask all the questions you need no matter how small or big you think they are we are here to help you in any way we can.

shalom,

Mizz

[Fez]

I understand logically about Jesus, but I have not been able to make myself believe, feel it, something. Yet, I am still here, still seeking and asking questions, so some part of me must believe something.

Of course some part of you believes something. But what you have to try and do is take the logic out of the equation.

Faith is not based on logic (logic is a man made construct, and we all know where that leads...). I realize this is hard to understand, but it logic dictates that we "stand in the shallow end, with a deep water faith".

Faith dictates that we dive headfirst into the deep end and let Him lift us up.

Just talk to Him SDGS, pray constantly, talk to Him like you would talk to anyone. Start there.

Blessings.

[Guest SDGS]

I hope this is okay and that I am not angering anyone or seen as trying to pot stir.

Your reply opened up another question.

I believe God knew all that would happen but He loved His creation so much that He gave them the choice to live in His light or perish in the dark.

If this is true, then what about the flood? God got angry at the bad sin so rampant and said He regretted His creation and was going to wipe everything out. Somebody (it says He was talking to somebody, maybe an angel?) said "what about Noah? He is faithful", so God told Noah to build the ark.

I don't know how to make this all fit.

Thank you for explaining things to me and helping me, and for not getting angry. This is helping me, truly it is.