Magog and Armageddon

[sweetycakes]

(for those of you who don't know.....Whirlwind is a person I have been communicating with on another forum. She is a lady of 61 years of age)

Thank you for the "lady" but REALLY.....did you have to say the rest?

I went back to the other forum and it seems so dark (in format and content). I almost feel called to go there....so many young people and so misguided. I'll continue to but it is a pleasure to log in here.

...........Whirlwind

You're right about that. (The 'other forum' stuff)

So much 'goes' on the 'other forum'............all kinds of 'kooks'......without meaning to be offensive.

And if you feel Led, then I would say, by all means, go and do your best to enlighten them.

As for this site......I would say that, during my 2+ years on this forum, I have found Shiloh to be quite exceptionally informed. He is a 'good egg'.

Anyway, whatever your views, enjoy your time on Worthy Boards.

And you are definitely a Lady

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Oct 12 2007, 04:49 AM)

I am not twisting anything.

yes, you are...and trying to pass it off as exegesis

Evidiently, you are not schooled much in exegesis.

QUOTE

Let me provide you with some examples of hyperbole that match EXACTLY what the prophet Ezekiel is employing.

wrong...stop right there, your premise is false

before you quote a bunch of stuff from David, this is GOD speaking...it's not David or some other prophet using poetic language, this is GOD's OWN WORD concerning impending judgment, you better believe it's a narrative, because it's as good as done to the eternal God

your strawman argument is dismissed, once again...you have no case here, you're running wild on a liberal tangent, making up your own terminology (or something you grabbed from the internet) and false claims, including "hyperbole" and poetic language, but you're simply wrong...you cannot point to any other prophetic passage referencing this massive quake that does not speak of events associated with the conlusion of the Tribulation in the same breath...I challenge you to find ONE

You have a habit of "dismissing" what other say, by simply saying it has been dismissed. So far, if you are noticing at all, you have not convinced anyone yet. No one is buying into your position. I have provided a number of reasons why Armageddon and the war depicted in Ezek. 38 and 39 are not the same, and you simply brush the majority of them aside and refuse to address them. You continue to make assertions that you have not provided evidence for, and treat every response anybody gives with nothing but hatefulness and arrogance.

Actually I have a very strong case, and just because you fail to acknowledge it, doesn't mean it isn't there. You continue to call my claims false, but provide no evidence as why. You lob all kinds accusations such as "liberal tangents" and so forth but offer nothing of substance. All you seem to know how to do is rant. It would be nice if you offered a substantive response. It would be nice if your response was not "you're wrong."

As far as prophetic passages, you are the one with the burden of proof, not me. You cannot provide and have not provided ONE New Testament passages that directly cites Ezekiel 38 and 39 has being fulfilled in the book of Revelation at the battle of Armageddon. The Bible draws absolutely no direct connection between the two. You seem to think that you can connect a couple of dots by saying that a couple of alleged earthquakes proves your case, and it doesn't. It may prove it to YOU, but it does not prove your case in the absolute sense.

Furthermore, prophecies just like poetic literature, use figurative language of all kinds, particularly when you get to the book of Revelation. So, it is completely valid to compare figurative indicators. We don't use a psalm to interpret a prophecy, but it is easy to see common literary devices that are employed in both. I also cited the book of the prophet Jeremiah in chapter 4 where he uses hyperbole in speaking about the desolation of Jerusalem in global language, some of it actually coming directly from Genesis 1:1.

QUOTE

Not one reputable well-known Dispensationalist teacher/evangelist views Armageddon and the war of Magog/Gog as the same event.

wrong again...John MacArthur, likely the finest pastor teacher alive today, shares my view, for one, and so does David Jeremiah, who's in your camp? no one I've ever heard of

Well, stand corrected. Actually, I had prophecy teachers in mind such as Grant R. Jeffrey, Hilton Sutton, David Allen Lewis, Dwight Pentacost, Hal Lindsay and several others who would not agree with either MacArthur or David Jeremiah, and are just as studied and accomplished as they are and whose studies major in Bible prophecy, wheras, David Jeremiah and McArthur do not.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Oct 12 2007, 06:36 PM)

You have a habit of "dismissing" what other say, by simply saying it has been dismissed.

I still dismiss the hyperbole argument completely

Dismissing something without evidence is pretty much empty. You dismiss it, but you cannot articulate why.

It is like "The Flat Earth Society" out in California, who reject any position against a flat earth, but they cannot provide actually evidence. They "dismiss" our astronauts going to the moon. They "dismiss" every photograph of the earth from outer space and even those taken from airplance that show the curvature of the earth. Everything presented that demonstrates a spherical earth, they dismiss. Their "dismissal" is meaningless, because they cannot provide anything of scientific value to demonstrate to any degree of credibility, their position that the earth is flat.

The point is, you can "dismiss" until the cows come home, but until you can actually forumulate a substantive, evidentiary response that actually addresses the bulk of OP, you really don't have much of anything of value to refute me with.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Oct 12 2007, 06:56 PM)

The point is, you can "dismiss" until the cows come home, but until you can actually forumulate a substantive, evidentiary response that actually addresses the bulk of OP, you really don't have much of anything of value to refute me with.

your arguments were actually quite poor,

And yet cannot actually offer a substantive response to any of them. If they were so poor, you could have offered something more than just "you're wrong. You would have been able to demonstrate why they were wrong. You could'nt.

but I'm now on your side: there are two great battles, and two massive earthquakes that shake the earth

That is not EXACTLY what I said, AND I am not sure that I can trust you at this point, so I am taking that with a grain of salt.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Oct 12 2007, 07:18 PM)

And yet cannot actually offer a substantive response to any of them.

actaully I could, but I valued my time....

That is baloney. You wasted plenty of time on this thread responding to EVERYONE who disagreed with you. It would have taken no more time to actually come up with something substantive than to make several posts where you bascially repeated yourself over and over.

where you lost my respect is claiming the earthquake described in Ezekiel 38 is "hyperbole

Yet, you couldn't say anything about it other than you "dismissed it." Again, if I were wrong, it would have been simple to formulate a meaningful response as to why. I have spent less time on this thread than you, and I have no problem thinking through an answer and explaining why I believe your position was mistaken. Unfortunately, you were unable to do the same.

[Guest shiloh357]

I have strong opinions, yes, and I could chill out a little on some of these non-salvation related topics, but it really bothers me when people arbitrarily resort to non literal interpretations of scripture when the context clearly demands a literal reading

Ezekiel 38 is 100% literal, every last word of it....what through me off was the two earthquakes and two massive battles

Yes, but reading the Bible "literally" means reading it as "literature." " Reading the Bible in a literal sense does not mean reading at "face value." When figurative literary devices are used, we are supposed to look for the literal meaning behind the literary device employed.

For example, in this Ezekiel passage what does God mean when He says, "my fury shall come up before my face?" It is figurative expression meant to express a literal truth.

What does it mean when God says that he would bring the armies of Magog by hooks in their jaws? Are we to assume that a literal reading means that everyone of these soldiers will be dragged "literally" by hooks in their jaws, or do we understand the literal meaning behind such a figurative expression?

[Fraught]

It's quite easy to insert smiley faces and the like, Whirlwind.

When replying to a post, you will see at the top of the reply panel (alongside the options for Bold, Underline, etc.....a 'smiley face' option. Click on that to reveal a 'drop down box' to select the smiley of your choice. There are many more if you select 'Show all'.

Feel free to post an introduction in the Worthy Welcome section, if the inclination takes you.

And be not afraid to interact with us. We are a friendly bunch............we don't bite.........with the exception of Ghostie, of course (only joking, Ghostie...... )

And, once again, welcome. I've been looking forward all week to you being able to overcome the problems you had with posting here the other week.

We are a great community of believers here on Worthy.

I can see that.

It is wonderful to be part of a forum of believers, even if there are different views. Those views can certainly bring out the personality of the posters and that does make it fun.

...........Whirlwind

Very Impressive Smileys !!!!! Welcome to Worthy! (and hey it's a big deal when i capitalize doncha know?) i am happy you came in with your alternative viewpoint on the tribes of israel - altho i'm skeptical, i find it interesting and the reading does yield some inspirations anyways. i believe God is always happy that we take time to search out his ways and not rely on the 'traditions of men'.

[whirlwind]

Very Impressive Smileys !!!!! Welcome to Worthy! (and hey it's a big deal when i capitalize doncha know?) i am happy you came in with your alternative viewpoint on the tribes of israel - altho i'm skeptical, i find it interesting and the reading does yield some inspirations anyways. i believe God is always happy that we take time to search out his ways and not rely on the 'traditions of men'.

Thank you for the welcome and the kind words.

I agree with you in that God wants us to "search out His ways" and stay away from traditions of man.

As far as the "tribes" issue, it isn't a matter of salvation but is one of interest, at least to me. When you take in the whole picture of what has happened throughout history you see God's hand leading, guiding and directing His children. When I look at the Christian nations of today we see His blessings have been poured out on them.

I believe He puts us where He wants us to be to do the greatest good and as well as feeding and caring for flesh bodies in other countries, the "greatest good" is sharing His Word for souls. I see evidence of that in my life and I see it on the grander scale too. I see that in England, America, Canada, Australia. So...my personal belief is He has placed His children right where He wants them to be.

He has set the board for the big game of good vs. evil and He is moving His players into position.... So is his opponent. The game began long ago and appears to be drawing to it's conclusion. I know we win but the question is, how many of his players can we bring to our side? Actually, they are God's players anyway but have been led away. With His help we may be able to pull them home.

.........Whirlwind

[Guest shiloh357]

What does it mean when God says that he would bring the armies of Magog by hooks in their jaws? Are we to assume that a literal reading means that everyone of these soldiers will be dragged "literally" by hooks in their jaws, or do we understand the literal meaning behind such a figurative expression?

fine, that little blip is figurative, but the earthquake and the results of it are not figurative

Interesting, so when looking that this in the "literal" approach to verses 19 and 20 of chapter 38 of Ezekiel how far are you willing to go? What I mean is, in verse 20 it also says that "every wall will fall down."

Are you willing to commit to the same method of interpretation about the walls in the same way that you assert that every mountain and mountain range on earth will cease to exist? Are you committed to the same line of "literal" interpretation that EVERY wall of every building and house on earth will fall, and that no buildings of any kind will remain standing any where on the planet as a result of this battle? I mean, if you are going to be consistent, then that is the obvious conclusion you would have to draw.

The truth is that your approach does not amount to a "literal" interpretation at all. You are apply a "face value" approach, which many people mistake for being "literal."

This is why I can make the case that from a literary standpoint, it is obvious to anyone else (other than you) that the prophet Ezekiel is using exaggerated terms to underscore the international convulsions in every part of the world with respect to the supernatural defeat of the forces of Magog that will defy any kind of natural explanation.

[LightofJesus]

The last war is the FINAL war and it means what it says that all things will be destroyed and fall as it says. God has prepared for us a new Jerusalem and will be our new home. Why is this so hard to believe!? Yes in the great quake there will be nothing left!!! That is what the word says so believe what it says or just keep questioning and let yourself be unprepared for what is coming!