Guest Greg Davies Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 I'm not an expert on all the different denominational permutations on the doctrines surrounding the Holy Spirit. My general sense is there are two basic views based on the concept that the baptism and gift of the Holy Spirit are the same thing. The "fundamentalist" view is that we receive the Holy Spirit at salvation, period. Then the "pentecostal" view is that we receive the "baptism" after salvation and it is for power and tongues, ect. I believe that both of these views are partially correct. The error comes in thinking that the baptism and gift are the same thing. I'll briefly state my premise. We can get into greater detail if there is any interest. Baptism, in general, is for cleansing. It's a washing and literally means "to dip into". When we put I Cor. 12:13 and Titus 3:5 together we find that we are saved and become part of the body of Christ through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. John 3:6, in describing the "born again" process, Jesus says, "That which is born of Spirit is spirit". This is our initial salvation experience. The Gift of or "indwelling" or "being filled with" the Holy Spirit is for power and equips us for ministry to edify the Body with the gifts and to edify ourselves with the "unknown" tongue. Here's a question: How can you be filled with a baptism, considering the plain meaning of the words? Greg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Greg Davies Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Here's a question: How can you be filled with a baptism, considering the plain meaning of the words? Greg. Shalom Greg !! You get filled with the same substance into which you are baptized. If I immerse (baptize) an upright cup in my kitchen sink full of water, the cup also gets filled with the same water that it was immersed in. If I am baptized in the Holy Spirit then I am also filled with the same Spirit. Shalom Shlomo! I love the way that just rolls of the tongue. That's an interesting analogy; the cup. But what do you do with the believers in Acts 8:5-19 who obviously received the Holy Spirit from the Apostles laying their hands on them, after they were saved and water baptized by Philip? Or do you believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not part of the salvation experience, but only for power? Greg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rehydrated_for_Christ Posted October 12, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 39 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/26/1983 Share Posted October 12, 2007 This is a it confusing for me also. I think that you are baptised in the Spirit when you truely give your life over to Christ. I personally feel that this is why the Bible states that you are saved and baptised in the same sentence. Now, please no one jump on me, it is only my opinion. I just feel the word baptism gets too caught up with water baptism when there are several types of baptism and all of them are important to different aspects of your walk with Christ. Does that make any sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie B Posted October 12, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/03/1951 Share Posted October 12, 2007 I'm not an expert on all the different denominational permutations on the doctrines surrounding the Holy Spirit. My general sense is there are two basic views based on the concept that the baptism and gift of the Holy Spirit are the same thing. The "fundamentalist" view is that we receive the Holy Spirit at salvation, period. Then the "pentecostal" view is that we receive the "baptism" after salvation and it is for power and tongues, ect. I believe that both of these views are partially correct. The error comes in thinking that the baptism and gift are the same thing. I'll briefly state my premise. We can get into greater detail if there is any interest. Baptism, in general, is for cleansing. It's a washing and literally means "to dip into". When we put I Cor. 12:13 and Titus 3:5 together we find that we are saved and become part of the body of Christ through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. John 3:6, in describing the "born again" process, Jesus says, "That which is born of Spirit is spirit". This is our initial salvation experience. The Gift of or "indwelling" or "being filled with" the Holy Spirit is for power and equips us for ministry to edify the Body with the gifts and to edify ourselves with the "unknown" tongue. Here's a question: How can you be filled with a baptism, considering the plain meaning of the words? Greg. Ac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damo1 Posted October 12, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,822 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/16/1967 Share Posted October 12, 2007 from damo1 well to understand what you have pointed out hear i am not sure if the pastor in your church does this but hear wear i live the pastors do a 2 or 3 week course on this and you are told to bring your bible your note pad and you are allowed to answer as many questions as you want on the topic baptisem and then the gifts of the holy spirit are explained when i came out of jail in 1988 i sat in on a 2 weeek course threw the church i settled in also the pastor does this one on one and i feel it is very important for a new christian to sit threw this with their pastor as its no good just being directed to gods word and left to fend for your self that way no man made doctrine is thrown at you and you as a person are directed to gods word which is the truth yet i also will be doing this when i am ordained and i am able to live in the philippines with my partner who is a pastor and i told her that i wil be doing this in the new church she has planted which is church number 5 this way their is no confusion as these topics i have noticed get to heated when every one else has their own views to what baptisem and the gift of the holy spirit means baptisem is openly saying in public you are dying to your self and you beleive in jesus and will be following in his foot steps the gifts of the spirit come when you have been baptized as the holy spirit is living with in you and he is your guide your friend your mentor and he will open your eyes to the truth of gods living word and the gifts that are in you you will be able to work out what your gifts are this could be serving or this could be at the front greeting some gifts are imparted on you to enable you to speak into some ones life or to lead or to preach or to be an evangelist yet as a person you will need to ask the holy spirit to show you what your gifts are and if you are in a good church wear you are not held back you should be encouraged by your pastor and those with in the leadership team or those close to you to use your gifts hear in my country most churches have spiritual mentors they are like counslers but people who can come along side you and open you up to gods word and bring your gifts out my gifts are serving as jesus came to serve not to be served than these are my other gifts playing the guitar i never use to play the guitar and when i started to depend on the holy spirit as i was reading gods word this gift was given to me then i am also a mentor and a teacher as i work close with young troubled youth and i can share from my life experiances and know i will also have a new role which is leading and equiping gods people this is one gift most say was only for the apostles which to me and only speaking for my self i feel it is also for us other wise it would not be written down in gods living word for us to read and be guided by the holy spirt and i have heard many also say that the gift of speaking in tounges is of the devil and its not of god 1 Corinthians 14 1 follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts especialy the gift of prophecy 2 for any one who speaks in a tounge does not speak to men but to god indeed no one understands him but utters mysteries with his spirit 3 but every one who prophecies speaks to men for their strengthening encoragment and comfort 4 he who speaks in a tounge edifies him self but he who prohpecies edifies the church 5 i would like everyone of you to speak in tounges but i would rather have you prophesy he who prophesies is greater greater then the one who speaks in tongues unless he interprets so that the church may be edified 1 Corinthians 14 32 tongues than are a sign not for beleivers but for unbeleivers prophecy however is for beleivers not unbeleivers 33 so if the hole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues and someone who do not understand or some unbeleivers come in will they not say that you are out of your mind 34 but if an unbeleiver or someone who does not understand comes in while every body is prophecsying he will be convicted by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all 35 and the secrets of his heart will be layed bare so he will fall down and worship god exclaiming god is really among you this is one topic most avoid but if you have a spiritual mentor you will be lead threw gods word and this will be expalined to you if it is a true bible beleiving church that preaches gods truth and you are not told to just go by what the pastor says as he knows what is best and is only speaking what you do not want to hear this is dangerous and no one should put them selves above god or above the living word of god as when you do this you place a harsher judgment on your self when i came out of jail in 1988 i walked into a beleiving church that puit what it preached into practice a couple even took me into their home as i was going to sleep in a bus shelter for the night and hitch back to sydney and go back to the run down motel i use to sleep in kings cross when i was a street kid as i new their wear still street kids and others using this old motel that had 40 rooms as their home when i walked in i could not beleive what i saw all threw the worship i felt some thing tugging at my heart i was weak in my knees two big guys who wear christians were next to me and i could not move by the time the alter call was called i found my self down the front with an x alcaholic praying over me and then me saying the sinners prayer as i cried for the first time even threw the service tears wear running down my face and i wanted out yet could not move and then i met this couple who are very close to me know these wear my spiritual mentors and spiritual brother and sister who opend up gods word to me and encouraged me to walk in my gifts i said the sinners prayer i repented of past sins and asked jesus to forgive me i got a water baptisem by telling the hole world that i am dying to my self and i am following in christs foot steps and then the gifts came by reading gods word by spending time with my spiritual mentor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
None Posted October 12, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,513 Content Per Day: 0.24 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/05/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/01/1908 Share Posted October 12, 2007 Or do you believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not part of the salvation experience, but only for power? I believe our bodies are imperfect vessels although we can be filled and flow over with the power of the Holy Spirit but only in His own timing and for God's purposes. There was only ever One perfect and pure Vessel and that is Jesus. The Holy Spirit goes where He is needed and our imperfect vessels can only hope to be filled by Him and used for God's will and purpose. Matthew 6:22-23 22)"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23)But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness! If we have any sin in us like pride, hate, greed, selfishness etc., He won't enter our vessels and use us for God's glory. That's why we have to renew ourselves by praying, asking for forgiveness daily and doing our best not to make a mockery of Jesus' atonement for our sins. Matthew 19:17 17)"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." John 14:11-12 11)Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12)Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. Matthew 5:20 20)For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherman Posted October 12, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 278 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1962 Share Posted October 12, 2007 There is a difference between drinking a glass of water (salvation, being born of the Spirit) and drowning in a river (the baptism in the Holy Spirit). When one drowns in the river they are filled and immersed in water. When drinking a glass of water, the person is very much in control. When drowning in a river, the water is very much in control. Jesus said that "out of your bellies shall flow rivers of living water." The Samaritans, though they had received Christ by faith and been baptized in water, received the baptism in the Holy Spirit when the Apostles laid hands on them. On the other hand, Cornelius and his family received the baptism in the Holy Spirit upon hearing and believing the Gospel, before they even prayed or were baptized in water. Not only that, but salvation, the sealing of the Holy Spirit, is a one-time event; whereas the baptism/filling with/of the Holy Spirit is a repetitious event in an individuals life. Once we are saved we become vessels of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit fills, overflows, and pours out of us; thus we need re-filling. So don't be drunk with wine, but be filled (present, active, continuous) with the Holy Spirit! Blessings, Sherman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherman Posted October 12, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 278 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1962 Share Posted October 12, 2007 Even the Apostles, though they believed in Christ, were saved, had received the Spirit, were told to wait in Jerusalem for the Baptism in the Holy Spirit to empower them to be witnesses. Before the baptism in the Holy Spirit they were fearful and in hiding. After the baptism in the Holy Spirit they preached boldly though it might cost them their lives. So let's all be filled with the Spirit and preach the Gospel in boldness in the temple and in the market place! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted October 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 12, 2007 Even the Apostles, though they believed in Christ, were saved, had received the Spirit, were told to wait in Jerusalem for the Baptism in the Holy Spirit to empower them to be witnesses. Before the baptism in the Holy Spirit they were fearful and in hiding. After the baptism in the Holy Spirit they preached boldly though it might cost them their lives. So let's all be filled with the Spirit and preach the Gospel in boldness in the temple and in the market place! Arguing theology from Acts is difficult because it is historical narrative. There were some unique conditions in Acts that cannot be repeated today. For example, the disciples were believers before the Holy Spirit was given. So we would expect a unique receiving of the Spirit by them. Today those conditions do not exist. the language in the epistiles leads us to believe that we are all baptized with the same Spirit. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a salvation thing, not an additional top off of the tank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poorinspirit Posted October 12, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/12/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/21/1963 Share Posted October 12, 2007 Or do you believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not part of the salvation experience, but only for power? I believe our bodies are imperfect vessels although we can be filled and flow over with the power of the Holy Spirit but only in His own timing and for God's purposes. There was only ever One perfect and pure Vessel and that is Jesus. The Holy Spirit goes where He is needed and our imperfect vessels can only hope to be filled by Him and used for God's will and purpose. Luke 5: 36And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. 37And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. 38But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. 2 Corinthians 5: 17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Colossians 2: 5For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: John 6: 28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6: And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 2 Corinthians 13: 5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? Hebrews 4: 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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