tsth Posted March 11, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted March 11, 2004 Check it out in your Bible. I had never noticed it before, but this passage really jumped out at me. Numbers 21:14 In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted March 12, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted March 12, 2004 Isaiah 42:23 Who among you will give ear to this? Who will listen and hear for the time to come? 24 Who gave Jacob for plunder, and Israel to the robbers? Was it not the Lord, He against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in His ways, Nor were they obedient to His law. 25 Therefore He has poured on him the fury of His anger And the strength of battle; It has set him on fire all around, Yet he did not know; And it burned him, Yet he did not take it to heart. Milchamah The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon Strong's Number: 04421 Browse Lexicon Original Word Word Origin hmxlm from (03898) (in the sense of fighting) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Milchamah TWOT - 1104c Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech mil-khaw-maw' Noun Feminine Definition battle, war In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idolsmasher Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 You missed the point......Yeshua is not an eternal pacifist The point I was making is that He seemed to expect it of His followers and there is nothing in the gospels that points to anything different. God can do what He wants because His judgements are righteous but man's wars seem to be more about greed and power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted March 12, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted March 12, 2004 There is a bigger picture in regard to wars. There is a purpose to war. It is as affliction to a nation, to serve a purpose. Isaiah 54 11 "O you afflicted one, Tossed with tempest, and not comforted, Behold, I will lay your stones with colorful gems, And lay your foundations with sapphires. 12 I will make your pinnacles of rubies, Your gates of crystal, And all your walls of precious stones. 13 All your children shall be taught by the Lord, And great shall be the peace of your children. 14 In righteousness you shall be established; You shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear; And from terror, for it shall not come near you. 15 Indeed they shall surely assemble, but not because of Me. Whoever assembles against you shall fall for your sake. 16 "Behold, I have created the blacksmith Who blows the coals in the fire, Who brings forth an instrument for his work; And I have created the spoiler to destroy. 17 No weapon formed against you shall prosper, And every tongue which rises against you in judgment You shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, And their righteousness is from Me," Says the Lord. In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idolsmasher Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 The things you are quoting Suzanne are from the Old Testament. What about the words of the master Jesus? There are lots of things from the OT that are no longer valid, such as stoning, sacrifice, etc. Jesus changed alot of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Yeshua spoke quite a bit about violent acts of Judgement ultimately coming at His hand upon His return. He is the Messiah and most verses (in the OT) describing Messiah have not yet been fulfilled. He simply is not a pacifist. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal...but that is not exactly the same thing pacifism teaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 The point I was making is that He seemed to expect it of His followers and there is nothing in the gospels that points to anything different. God can do what He wants because His judgements are righteous but man's wars seem to be more about greed and power. Yet, when this is expressed in the form of Palestinian terrorism, you call it a "just cause." Your espousal of "pacifism" is tainted by an ulterior motive, and thus has no crediblity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idolsmasher Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Yeshua spoke quite a bit about violent acts of Judgement ultimately coming at His hand upon His return. He is the Messiah and most verses (in the OT) describing Messiah have not yet been fulfilled. He simply is not a pacifist. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal...but that is not exactly the same thing pacifism teaches. We aren't talking about God being a pacifist because His judgements are done in righteousness. Man on the other hand is a completely different. We are talking about what God expects of mankind and more importantly, His people and those who claim to follow Him. Christ taught his disciples to love everyone and even their enemies but I don't recall anywhere where he told them to take up arms. You may be wrong about the weapons too Yod: Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Romans 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Yet, when this is expressed in the form of Palestinian terrorism, you call it a "just cause." Your espousal of "pacifism" is tainted by an ulterior motive, and thus has no crediblity Well, by your own right to self defense definition they would have a legitimate right to defend themselves and their land. Anyway, we aren't talking about Muslims here, we are talking about followers of Christ and what He taught them. Lets not let this thread degenerate into long and wearisome diatribes about the rights and righteousness of Israel and the non rights and wickedness of the evil Muslim hoards please Shiloh. Even if you were able to discredit me, that doesn't change the message of Christ and the glaringly obvious lack of words of vengeance and warlike conduct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 We aren't talking about God being a pacifist because His judgements are done in righteousness. Man on the other hand is a completely different. We are talking about what God expects of mankind and more importantly, His people and those who claim to follow Him. Christ taught his disciples to love everyone and even their enemies but I don't recall anywhere where he told them to take up arms. And I confess you have a very good point there...but what about when God is the one bringing judgement on a nation? He uses other nations to do this. Do you think that God had anything to do with the fall of the Third Reich? Did He not use Russia and America to bring Hitler to an end? Was that not a righteous ending to an evil plot? You may be wrong about the weapons too Yod: Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Romans 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. How could I be wrong when I agree with every word of that? However, this is command for an individual. Even within the context of a battlefield, we can love our enemies.....IF...they allow it. In other words, if someone is shooting at me in a battle then he is not expressing any need for care as those verses are dealing with. However, the moment the enemy is defeated we are not to take VENGEANCE or OUR WRATH out on them. This passage is speaking of an enemy who has actively engaged against us yet it doesn't say "do not defend"....it says "do not take revenge". Subtle yet clear difference. When our enemy is defeated we can change their heart with love. This does not happen if we let evil win. :il: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted March 12, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 276 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 7,474 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1966 Share Posted March 12, 2004 I go away for just one week and all of you start misbehaving again. All of you go to your rooms and consider yourselves grounded. Peace is surely the answer and no one can say otherwise. God doesn't want us to war, he wants us to live together in His love. No doubt about it. But, sadly, most people in the world have no concept of this way of life, including us that have accepted Jesus' work on the Cross for us and call Him our Savior. Yup, I'm guilty. I'm Saved, not perfect. I'm sorry, but I just can't rest until my small part in all of this is exhausted. May God have mercy on me. Hey, all, Iv'e missed you. t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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