JB Horn Posted October 23, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 178 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/29/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2007 Replying to is predestiny fair? to the elect it is the blessing but how about these who are not the elect Is it not true that those that are not of the elect do not want to be? And speaking of fair, is it fair that God chose one people, Jews, to favor over others? Paul heard your question 2100 years ago. Roms 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. the jews may be God's chosen people, but He did not make the gift of salvation exclusive to them. it is available for ANY who will accept Christ. and not all jews will enter heaven, because many of them will never accept Christ. True but that is not the question. God chose the Jews all through the OT and made His covenant with them and when He Christ returns it will not be to Kansas. Matthew 15:21-28 21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." 24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." 25 The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. 26 He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." 27 "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour. I am a gentile and am happy to take the crumbs that falls to the floor. He has given me a chance to be part of His covenent with the Jews. IHS JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Replying to is predestiny fair? to the elect it is the blessing but how about these who are not the elect Is it not true that those that are not of the elect do not want to be? And speaking of fair, is it fair that God chose one people, Jews, to favor over others? Paul heard your question 2100 years ago. Roms 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. the jews may be God's chosen people, but He did not make the gift of salvation exclusive to them. it is available for ANY who will accept Christ. and not all jews will enter heaven, because many of them will never accept Christ. True but that is not the question. God chose the Jews all through the OT and made His covenant with them and when He Christ returns it will not be to Kansas. Matthew 15:21-28 21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." 24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." 25 The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. 26 He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." 27 "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour. I am a gentile and am happy to take the crumbs that falls to the floor. He has given me a chance to be part of His covenent with the Jews. IHS JB LOL, no, He certainly won't return to kansas! the whole God's chosen people was slightly off topic, but i chose to respond anyway. the real question is predestination. and predesitnation as people understand it is not Biblical. the gift of salvation is available to every human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoidAndroid Posted October 23, 2007 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 591 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/01/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/27/1979 Share Posted October 23, 2007 That's a good question. Is salvation fair at all? Why are you saved and not someone else? What makes you better than the man in the street? WHy do you deserve salvation more than your next door neighbour or your doctor, or your bank-manager? There is no way to get around it - salvation is not based on merits, but on Grace. If you think you deserve salvation more than anyone else, then you have completely missed the point of Grace. So No, salvation is not fair. It is in fact decidedly unfair. It has never been fair, and will not be fair. God, in his mercy, has chosen some of us to be saved. The question is not - "Why was God so unfair to condemn others", but rather "why was God so merciful as to choose me"! that's as how I view it, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Horn Posted October 23, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 178 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/29/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2007 LOL, no, He certainly won't return to kansas! the whole God's chosen people was slightly off topic, but i chose to respond anyway. the real question is predestination. and predesitnation as people understand it is not Biblical. the gift of salvation is available to every human. Well then if you are right and man can choose to be righteous without the help of God then there is really no need for Christ blood is there? If man can choose to be righteous then somewhere out there there must be a man that has never sinned. Of all the people in the world truly one would chose to be righteous. JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 That's a good question. Is salvation fair at all? Why are you saved and not someone else? What makes you better than the man in the street? WHy do you deserve salvation more than your next door neighbour or your doctor, or your bank-manager? There is no way to get around it - salvation is not based on merits, but on Grace. If you think you deserve salvation more than anyone else, then you have completely missed the point of Grace. So No, salvation is not fair. It is in fact decidedly unfair. It has never been fair, and will not be fair. God, in his mercy, has chosen some of us to be saved. The question is not - "Why was God so unfair to condemn others", but rather "why was God so merciful as to choose me"! that's as how I view it, at least. sorry but i think your thinking is backwards. salvation is totally fair, because it is up to every person to accept or reject what is offered to them. IF it were a predestined thing, where God only offered it to some but not to others, then you'd be right, it wouldn't be fair. but that's not the way it is. none of us deserve God's grace, but each of us is offered it. there is nothing unfair about a person spending eternity where THEY CHOOSE to spend it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 LOL, no, He certainly won't return to kansas! the whole God's chosen people was slightly off topic, but i chose to respond anyway. the real question is predestination. and predesitnation as people understand it is not Biblical. the gift of salvation is available to every human. Well then if you are right and man can choose to be righteous without the help of God then there is really no need for Christ blood is there? If man can choose to be righteous then somewhere out there there must be a man that has never sinned. Of all the people in the world truly one would chose to be righteous. JB i'm not sure how you mistook what i was saying, but i absolutely disagree. a man can not be righteous without the grace of God, the gift of salvation that He made possible through the shed blood of His son. but Jesus shed His blood for EVERYONE. it is a gift that is freely given to every man, woman or child who ACCEPTS the gift. it has nothing to do with self-righteousness, it has everything to do with acceptance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoidAndroid Posted October 23, 2007 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 591 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/01/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/27/1979 Share Posted October 23, 2007 (edited) sorry but i think your thinking is backwards. salvation is totally fair, because it is up to every person to accept or reject what is offered to them. IF it were a predestined thing, where God only offered it to some but not to others, then you'd be right, it wouldn't be fair. but that's not the way it is. none of us deserve God's grace, but each of us is offered it. there is nothing unfair about a person spending eternity where THEY CHOOSE to spend it.Methinks I can see a degeneration into the good ol' predestination vs free will debate here. One which I'm not sure is likely to help matters at all. I guess I have only one question - do you believe you deserve to enter heaven? Edited October 23, 2007 by ParanoidAndroid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 sorry but i think your thinking is backwards. salvation is totally fair, because it is up to every person to accept or reject what is offered to them. IF it were a predestined thing, where God only offered it to some but not to others, then you'd be right, it wouldn't be fair. but that's not the way it is. none of us deserve God's grace, but each of us is offered it. there is nothing unfair about a person spending eternity where THEY CHOOSE to spend it.Methinks I can see a degeneration into the good ol' predestination vs free will debate here. One which I'm not sure is likely to help matters at all. I guess I have only one question - do you believe you deserve to enter heaven? no way. neither do you. nobody deserves heaven. it is a gift we've both accepted though, and it is this grace in which we stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM75 Posted October 23, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 50 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2007 That's a good question. Is salvation fair at all? Why are you saved and not someone else? What makes you better than the man in the street? WHy do you deserve salvation more than your next door neighbour or your doctor, or your bank-manager? There is no way to get around it - salvation is not based on merits, but on Grace. If you think you deserve salvation more than anyone else, then you have completely missed the point of Grace. So No, salvation is not fair. It is in fact decidedly unfair. It has never been fair, and will not be fair. God, in his mercy, has chosen some of us to be saved. The question is not - "Why was God so unfair to condemn others", but rather "why was God so merciful as to choose me"! that's as how I view it, at least. sorry but i think your thinking is backwards. salvation is totally fair, because it is up to every person to accept or reject what is offered to them. IF it were a predestined thing, where God only offered it to some but not to others, then you'd be right, it wouldn't be fair. but that's not the way it is. none of us deserve God's grace, but each of us is offered it. there is nothing unfair about a person spending eternity where THEY CHOOSE to spend it. God's grace is given whereever men reform themselves and give up their idols, giving knowledge of Jesus Christ to men, to whomever he sends thee. You are called, chosen and predestinated to have God's favour and merits imputed unto you for righteousness. To reform read Proverbs in the TRC Matthew's version avaiable at faithofgod.net. The Tyndale N.T is an article of predestination and shows whom God hath chosen to have life and here you can learn how God choses (among the ungodly) Proverbs 12:1-2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Horn Posted October 23, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 178 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/29/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2007 (edited) LOL, no, He certainly won't return to kansas! the whole God's chosen people was slightly off topic, but i chose to respond anyway. the real question is predestination. and predesitnation as people understand it is not Biblical. the gift of salvation is available to every human. Well then if you are right and man can choose to be righteous without the help of God then there is really no need for Christ blood is there? If man can choose to be righteous then somewhere out there there must be a man that has never sinned. Of all the people in the world truly one would chose to be righteous. JB i'm not sure how you mistook what i was saying, but i absolutely disagree. a man can not be righteous without the grace of God, the gift of salvation that He made possible through the shed blood of His son. but Jesus shed His blood for EVERYONE. it is a gift that is freely given to every man, woman or child who ACCEPTS the gift. it has nothing to do with self-righteousness, it has everything to do with acceptance. Oh but it does have to do with being self-righteous. When man is left on his own to choose between righteousness and evil he eats from the forbidden fruit. Even after salvation we still goes back and sins. All men have the same sinful nature yet some will receive the grace of God and some will not. And that is why I brought up the fact that God even has a favorite people can you explain to me why He favored the Jews over others. No God is sovereign and does not have to explain His nature to us. And God does not choose those who are to be condemned they made that choice out of their free will, and that is biblical. Man has free will but left to his own he goes back to the forbidden fruit. God proves this to us Christians over and over when He lets us go astray and even after receiving His grace we choose to return to sin. If you really believe that you came by your faith on your own then you must believe that you can loose your faith, and that becomes a problem because if you believe you can loose your faith then you don't really have faith do you. JB Edited October 23, 2007 by JB Horn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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