Those who were left out

[Christ_Sheep]

Since god said that all will be without excuse, I will say this ... yes they will be held accountable. If someone did not hear about the gospel, why would they be let into heaven? (Wit the exception of babies and those whom are classified having a mental retardation). God will then judge those people who "claim" to never of heard of Jesus on the law which is written on their hearts. It shifts from, "you didn't accept me" to "You have a moral code, you didn't follow it". All have sinned and all people have a conscience. Living in a world where there are so many "beliefs" it would not be an over assumption to say that a person, or a group of people really wanting to live right, that they could explore the prospect and possibilities of other faiths out there. The Holy Spirit draws all men to the father, a person ignorant of the gospel of Jesus still has no excuse, simply, because, that person could have checked out other beliefs, heard or saw what they said, and then made a decision on what they wanted to believe.

If everyone could tap into, "lets stay in a region where we think the Gospel won't ever be preached", then there would be a lot more people destined for heaven than there are. I am not trying to be fecicious, but, I am just saying that a fully adult person with an average mental capacity living in an environment where the Gospel had not reached them, (though I find that almost an impossibility, due to televangelism), cannot heartily say that Christ could be not found ... and then on those grounds expect to have his/her bags packed for heaven.

Edited October 31, 2007 by Christ_Sheep

[Smalcald]

We are saved by the Grace of Christ alone.

Without Christ no one will find salvation or hope. But we are not in control of the power and grace of Christ. The bible simply says that those with faith will be saved, it does not say how they may come to faith, and it does not say they must make some sort of "decision for Christ" or anything of that sort at all, although there is nothing wrong with those who do as long as they realize that it is not thier decision or work. Why do you make some sort of exception for babies and the mentally disabled? If Christ can save them certainly He can save others.

I find it tremendously comforting to know that He is in control of this process and not us. Our only job is to spread the Gospel, not to make decisions about who will be shown His grace.

Consider the conversion of Paul. Did he search around other faiths and make a decision that his was bad and following Christ was good? No he did not, in fact he killed Christians. But what did God do? God spoke to him directly, knocking him blind. Certainly Paul did not reject or run from what God directly told him, but Paul did nothing but not run, he made no decision he did not rely on his good works, he was just walking down a road on his way to persecute more Christians.

So if Christ would do that for a person persecuting His followers, I think we can rely on His mercy for those who have never had an opportunity to know Christ until they enter eternity.

[Christ_Sheep]

We are saved by the Grace of Christ alone.

Without Christ no one will find salvation or hope. But we are not in control of the power and grace of Christ. The bible simply says that those with faith will be saved, it does not say how they may come to faith, and it does not say they must make some sort of "decision for Christ" or anything of that sort at all, although there is nothing wrong with those who do as long as they realize that it is not thier decision or work. Why do you make some sort of exception for babies and the mentally disabled? If Christ can save them certainly He can save others.

I find it tremendously comforting to know that He is in control of this process and not us. Our only job is to spread the Gospel, not to make decisions about who will be shown His grace.

Consider the conversion of Paul. Did he search around other faiths and make a decision that his was bad and following Christ was good? No he did not, in fact he killed Christians. But what did God do? God spoke to him directly, knocking him blind. Certainly Paul did not reject or run from what God directly told him, but Paul did nothing but not run, he made no decision he did not rely on his good works, he was just walking down a road on his way to persecute more Christians.

So if Christ would do that for a person persecuting His followers, I think we can rely on His mercy for those who have never had an opportunity to know Christ until they enter eternity.

You definitely mistook what I wrote, (theres hardly anything in my post or what you've said that I am in disagreement with). I was saying, the mentally handicapped and babies both go to heaven automatically when they die. Not that they couldn't be saved, I am agreeing with what you said. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough in my opening post.

Well, I make an exception for babies because they're not mature in thought or in their decision making. Yes, they were born into a sinful nature and world, but they, themselves, could not possibly fathom what sin is or was nor could they have a sin consciousness about it. The same goes for someone with a mental disability, if I am thirty, but, my concept of the world around me is scrambled ... or hasn't evolved to the point of a person whom can freely think and make decisions on their own with a sin consciousness Then how can I be held acountable for my sins? It's sort of like the the criminal justice system, those types of people don't go to prison for their act, though it may be a mental institution, because they legitimately didn't know they were doing wrong.

I think everyone would be in agreement that ALL babies or infants are in heaven. Of all the testimonies I've seen from people who god allowed to have a brush with hell (before they were saved) none of them ever recalled seeing babies searing down below. I've also read articles that support my opinion as well. I honestly feel the same applies to the mentally handicapped.

If Jesus said he is the way, the truth and the life ... I would estimate it doesn't matter what religion you are, you would have to profess that with your mouth and honor that with your actions (should you be a person capable of such), to be accepted into heaven. He said no man cometh to the father, but by him. Allah, Confuscious, Mohammed, all dead guy's aren't going to cut it.

You are right about Paul, I will say. However, Paul didn't need to search around for other faiths. Jesus spoke directly to him. In most instances, in this day and age people will not be able to discern the voice of the lord quite as well as he did, especially if they're from another religious group where they weren't taught to discern the voices of their "god" quite as effectively as Christians are. Or if they didn't have a great Revealation of whom the true lord really was. The lord revealed himself to Paul, so he didn't need to search around. Most times, people DO have to search around because god doesn't always appear to us now, as he did to people back then, before they had a chance to search the holy bible or hear it preached to them. Practically, no, no, our entire lives we are supposed to listen distinctly for the voice of god to lead us in our daily functions, whatever they may be.

We are both saying the same thing, Christ is the ONLY answer.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Christ_Sheep

[OneLight]

I still hold the same beliefs as before. God will judge those who have not heard of God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Bible or anything else that has been brought forth since Adam and Eve, according to their heart. God is a God of Love, more then any one of us can ever understand with our finite minds. Through His creation, He has made Himself known. If someone in a far off place, that never knew of God, but knew in their heart that there is a God, and lives their life the holiest they could, then God will judge them accordingly. He will also judge the wicked in the same manner.

In threads like this, we must remember that we are not God and should not judge someone's else's salvation. To discuss our beliefs is one thing, but to say they are condemned to hell is another.

[KeilanS]

I quote C.S. Lewis:

Is it not frightfully unfair that this new life should be cofined to people who have heard of Christ and been able to believe in Him? But the truth is that God has not told us what His arrangements for other people are. We do know that no man can be saved except through Him. We do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him.

[systemstrike_7]

Tell me how many of the remote tribe on that island off of Africa are without sin?

JB

None of them. Are you without sin? No you are not. Do you go to heaven? Yes you do. Why? Because you fall under the Grace of Jesus Christ. Do these hypothetical tribesmen fall under the Grace of Christ? No. Have they had the oppurtunity to fall under that Grace? No they haven't. So do they go to hell? I certainly hope not. That would make me a bit suspicious of God's mercy (and logic).

There, I just saved us from having a long conversation by stating the entire thing in one post.

Are you saying that God is unjust if He choose to send sinners to hell? Is this not His sovereign right? Is not grace and forgiveness His to give?

Who makes the choice of the circumstances of where these hypothetical tribesmen were born?

JB

Rom 9:14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy.

As for Ayin Jade's post, I still believe Paul is speaking about the Law as regards to the Gentiles.

I am certainly saying that God is unjust if He sends people to Hell simply because He made them live somewhere that they had no oppurtunity to hear the word of Christ. Does He have that right? I suppose He does, but that doesn't mean I agree with His decision. What if you were one of those tribesmen? What if you were to die without ever hearing the message of Christ and you stood in front of God and He told you, "You are going to Hell for not believing in my Son." Wouldn't you feel that He dealt with you a bit unjustly?

[systemstrike_7]

I will say this one more time: Jesus Christ HIMSELF said that NO ONE will get to the FATHER except THROUGH HIM. I don't see any exception in Jesus' words. There is just no way around them. So was Jesus lying? Did Jesus actually say that? Or was that simply John's theological agenda putting words in Jesus' mouth?

And if it is true, then why would a GOD OF LOVE do such a terrible thing? You can tell me that God has the power to choose whatever He wants, but I cannot and will not worship a God who sends someone to Hell who He intentionally put in a position that they had no other choice.

As for the part about how the hypothetical tribesman should search out for "a faith" if he truly wants to be morally correct, how is this tribesman supposed to do it? If this person is in a place where Chrsitianity hasn't reached him yet, what makes you think they will have an extensive library with books on every different religion?

Again, the God of Christianity's very nature (if not existence) depends upon the answer to this question. You can deny that all you want, but it will get you nowhere.

Another side note: If Paul is telling us that those apart from the Law are judged apart from the Law and if those who he talks about are people who will never have the chance to even hear the name of Jesus, then is He not blatantly contradicting the words of Jesus? I don't think there is any way to get around what Jesus said. And I personally give more credit to Jesus than to Paul.

[KeilanS]

I will say this one more time: Jesus Christ HIMSELF said that NO ONE will get to the FATHER except THROUGH HIM. I don't see any exception in Jesus' words. There is just no way around them. So was Jesus lying? Did Jesus actually say that? Or was that simply John's theological agenda putting words in Jesus' mouth?

I'm going to assume you had not yet read my quote in post #16 when you posted this. Jesus Christ did say that no one will get to the Father except through Him. He did not lie, but nowhere did He say that only through a personal relationship with Him can you get to heaven. You don't necessarily have to know Him to be saved through Him.

The simple answer to your question is that we just don't know how God will judge them, we only know that they will be judged by a merciful and just God and we have very little reason to belive they are simply all going to hell.

[systemstrike_7]

I will say this one more time: Jesus Christ HIMSELF said that NO ONE will get to the FATHER except THROUGH HIM. I don't see any exception in Jesus' words. There is just no way around them. So was Jesus lying? Did Jesus actually say that? Or was that simply John's theological agenda putting words in Jesus' mouth?

I'm going to assume you had not yet read my quote in post #16 when you posted this. Jesus Christ did say that no one will get to the Father except through Him. He did not lie, but nowhere did He say that only through a personal relationship with Him can you get to heaven. You don't necessarily have to know Him to be saved through Him.

The simple answer to your question is that we just don't know how God will judge them, we only know that they will be judged by a merciful and just God and we have very little reason to belive they are simply all going to hell.

I see what you're saying, i think. So you mean that Jesus still has the power to save people who have never heard His name... correct? Well then we should consider the passage John 6: 53-57:

53Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves. 54He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he that eateth me, he also shall live because of me.

It seems He is saying that unless you eat of His flesh and drink of His blood, then you will not have eternal life.

[Smalcald]

I will say this one more time: Jesus Christ HIMSELF said that NO ONE will get to the FATHER except THROUGH HIM. I don't see any exception in Jesus' words. There is just no way around them. So was Jesus lying? Did Jesus actually say that? Or was that simply John's theological agenda putting words in Jesus' mouth?

I'm going to assume you had not yet read my quote in post #16 when you posted this. Jesus Christ did say that no one will get to the Father except through Him. He did not lie, but nowhere did He say that only through a personal relationship with Him can you get to heaven. You don't necessarily have to know Him to be saved through Him.

The simple answer to your question is that we just don't know how God will judge them, we only know that they will be judged by a merciful and just God and we have very little reason to belive they are simply all going to hell.

I see what you're saying, i think. So you mean that Jesus still has the power to save people who have never heard His name... correct? Well then we should consider the passage John 6: 53-57:

53Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves. 54He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he that eateth me, he also shall live because of me.

It seems He is saying that unless you eat of His flesh and drink of His blood, then you will not have eternal life.

Does He say when where and how that is to be done? Christ also told the thief on the cross, that the thief would be with Him in paradise.