Absent from the body...

[Massorite]

The plain truth of the matter is that there is not one single place written anywhere in the bible where it clearly states " When we die we will go to heaven".

Can you explain what these verses mean to you, especially what is in bold?

2 Corinthians 5:1-8

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, is he not?

God Bless,

OneLight

Replaced God with the Father

First of all you have made the same mistake that many have and always have made about these verses.

Your highlighted words say"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord". The mistake that is always made about this verse is that it is always read or interpreted " TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY IS TO BE IN THE PRESENTS OF THE LORD" but it is always over looked that verse says " WE ARE CONFIDENT, YES, WELL PLEASED TO BE RATHER".

You see that word "RATHER" is always over looked. Which means that the verses does not say " To be absent from the body is to be in the presents of the Lord" Instead the verse says that we would "RATHER" be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord".

These verses are talking about the flesh which is our house while we are in this world and verse six says just that "while we are at home in the body (of flesh) we are absent from the Lord"

So to say " To be absent from the body is to be absent from the Lord" is not written anywhere in the bible, is a misquote of what the word really says which leaves out one word which changes the whole of what the verse is actually saying which leads to and is part of a false doctrinal teaching. Which is "When we die we go to heaven" along with being part of the pre-trib concept as well.

Jesus is always our example and we should look at Him as such. So what did Jesus do when He died on that day? Paul says that He first "descended into the Lower reaches of the earth" before He rose from the grave.

Is there anywhere in the bible that says that what will happen to us will be different then what happened to our Saviour? No!

Dear Brother Massorite,

Greetings in the name of the Lord.

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

The verse emphasises not ''rather"" but ""confident"" as seen in the frequency of the word confidence, faith and not by sight in the preceding verse. Who are we confident in. The answer is in the Lord and not in man that we will be with the Lord when we die.

This is also not the only verse quote in the Bible the suggest that we will be with the Lord when we die, this other verse being just one.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

compare this verse with:

Mar 10:40 but to sit on my right hand or on my left hand is not mine to give; but it is for them for whom it hath been prepared.

So to say " To be absent from the body is to be absent from the Lord" is not written anywhere in the bible, is a misquote of what the word really says which leaves out one word which changes the whole of what the verse is actually saying which leads to and is part of a false doctrinal teaching. Which is "When we die we go to heaven" along with being part of the pre-trib concept as well.

Not so. the word ""rather'' does not change the meaning of 2 Corinthians 5:1-8, which talks about the flesh as a habitation while we are here and dying which would take us to be with the Lord. Just because Paul included a preference for one option, to be with the Lord does not negate the certainty that we will be with the Lord when we die.

The context of a verse do not only hinge on a single word, the context depends on the preceding or in the next couple of verses or even in the flavour or general context of the whole chapter.

So to say " To be absent from the body is to be absent from the Lord" is not written anywhere in the bible, is a misquote of what the word really says

Read the verse again, it says what it says. rather word doesn't change the flavour of the verse.

Jesus is always our example and we should look at Him as such. So what did Jesus do when He died on that day? Paul says that He first "descended into the Lower reaches of the earth" before He rose from the grave.

Is there anywhere in the bible that says that what will happen to us will be different then what happened to our Saviour?

To claim that we should follow everything Jesus does is ridiculous. No where in the Bible are you asked to be crucified and take on the sins of the World!! That is the prerogative of the Son of God! so is descending to Hades and resurrection by one's own power!

Which is "When we die we go to heaven" along with being part of the pre-trib concept as well.

pre trib concept does not require going to heaven when we die. Anyway, I would have thought that if you hold to a literal translation of the Bible, The pre-trib wold be the position that fits best.

New creature

Here is how I live. There is no such thing as the bible indicating, leading us to believe, suggesting, pointing to or any other speculitive assumptions. If the word of God does not say point blank in such a way that it can not be misunderstood. The word of God doesn't say it. So find me some scripture that says that when we die we will go to heaven. Because if the bible doesn't say that when we die we will go to heaven. We don't go to heaven when we die.

The only way you can make that verse work for you is to (as I have already said) egnore the word "rather". Other wise the verse is saying that we would RATHER be absent from the body an d present with the Lord. I am not saying that the word "rather" changes the meaning of the verse. I am saying that YOU have changed the meaning of the verse by egnoring the fact the the verse says that we are willing rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. Now I don't expect that we will all be crucified just because Jesus was but I do expect that we will die just as He did and go to the bosom of Abraham just as He did. And when we get to the bosom of Abraham we will be just like Lazarus and Daniel and Samuel and any body else the word of God has recorded as being in the lower reaches of the earth. We will "rest"/sleep until the day when Jesus sends His reapers to wake us and take us to the abode of God.

The fact of the matter is that the early church endured great persecution for most of 250 years just because they were believers in Christ and as we are speaking right now there are Christan's who are dieing horrible deaths and being put in prison just because they believe in Christ so don't think that you are above being hanged or burned alive or boiled in oil or fed to wild animals alive or put in jail or being tortured because you believe in Jesus. Because it can happen to you just like it happened to Christ.

[givennewname]

Here is how I live. There is no such thing as the bible indicating, leading us to believe, suggesting, pointing to or any other speculative assumptions. If the word of God does not say point blank in such a way that it can not be misunderstood. The word of God doesn't say it.

word "rather". Other wise the verse is saying that we would RATHER be absent from the body an d present with the Lord. I am not saying that the word "rather" changes the meaning of the verse. I am saying that YOU have changed the meaning of the verse by egnoring the fact the the verse says that we are willing rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. Now I don't expect that we will all be crucified just because Jesus was but I do expect that we will die just as He did and go to the bosom of Abraham just as He did. And when we get to the bosom of Abraham we will be just like Lazarus and Daniel and Samuel and any body else the word of God has recorded as being in the lower reaches of the earth. We will "rest"/sleep until the day when Jesus sends His reapers to wake us and take us to the abode of God.

The fact of the matter is that the early church endured great persecution for most of 250 years just because they were believers in Christ and as we are speaking right now there are Christan's who are dieing horrible deaths and being put in prison just because they believe in Christ so don't think that you are above being hanged or burned alive or boiled in oil or fed to wild animals alive or put in jail or being tortured because you believe in Jesus. Because it can happen to you just like it happened to Christ.

Dear Brother Massorite,

Greetings in the name of the Lord. Sorry for the late reply due to the holiday season and holiday mood. Merry Christmas every one and enjoy the joyous blessings that the Lord had given us in the birth of his son.

Back to the discussion.

Here is how I live. There is no such thing as the bible indicating, leading us to believe, suggesting, pointing to or any other speculative assumptions. If the word of God does not say point blank in such a way that it can not be misunderstood. The word of God doesn't say it.

Your statement may look very pious and zealous at the fist glance but in actuality, it is just plain academic laziness. The Bible is written over a periods of several millennium and written in various literary styles to various audience. To impose your requirement of point blank , in your face doctrinal fact is trying to tell God how to write the Bible. Of course there are other Christians would could ask God to write in a completely different and opposite style to suit their taste isn't it. Difficult to be God to cater to all his children's needs. He may just have to send a different type of saviour, different Bible to cater for all spiritual taste, therefore crucify his son several times.

Like I have mentioned previously, some of the bible writers are highly educated, like Paul and Daniel, Isaiah, some are less educated and have a less flowery style and more direct like Amos. Some books are completely allegorical like the book of Songs of Songs. If you apply a direct literal meaning to the book of Songs of Songs, all you end up with is an erotic and sensual book written by a man who wasted his life chasing foreign woman and pursuing riches and abandoning his God.

Jesus himself used Allegory, stories or parable for his teaching. Why is that? The reason is that stories are easy to understand as they apply to everyday situation. His listeners are not always religious teachers but farmers and uneducated fishermen. To apply direct literal translation to such passages just means you end up with with a folk tale and meaningless statements. Take as an example this few verses.

Joh 10:7 Jesus therefore said unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

Joh 10:8 All that came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them

It is obvious in this context that Jesus is not a door with hinges and door knobs and we are not bleating sheep with 3 bags full of wool. God has given us a mind to discern the context of a verse.

So find me some scripture that says that when we die we will go to heaven. Because if the bible doesn't say that when we die we will go to heaven. We don't go to heaven when we die.

I think there have been so much written already that i can't repeat it. Firstly Jesus promise that when we die, we go to his presence. since he says he goes back to the presence of God, I think there is no doubt where that is.

Now I don't expect that we will all be crucified just because Jesus was but I do expect that we will die just as He did and go to the bosom of Abraham just as He did. And when we get to the bosom of Abraham we will be just like Lazarus and Daniel and Samuel and any body else the word of God has recorded as being in the lower reaches of the earth

I don't think that is right. As I have discussed that in a previous post, Paradise is a garden and a waiting place. it is not a place in the lower reaches of earth.

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.

You could see that when the beggar died, the angels came to carry him away-unlikely to be in the lower reaches of the earth.

Similarly when Jesus ascended,

Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Act 1:10 And while they were looking steadfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Act 1:11 who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

Since Jesus when he ascended went up into heaven , and since we are in his presence,

Philippians 1:19-26

For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

We will "rest"/sleep until the day when Jesus sends His reapers to wake us and take us to the abode of God.

I don't find any scriptural Basis for that belief. At the rapture the trump of the archangel will sound, and the dead in Christ shall rise first to inherit their new body and then those that are still alive will receive their body. That is the hope that we are waiting for.

I don't see how you can justify your position. The lack of scripture does not prove a point.

New creature

[Pilgrim7]

Greetings'

A little context to shed some light on 2Cor 5:8 and brings out a different take:

2co 5:5 Now he that has wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also has given us the earnest of the Spirit.

5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, while we are at home (Present, comfortable, not waring against it desires, not resisting the flesh, thus not in the Spirit that has been given us. This state is also called being in the flesh, thus absent from the Lord) in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight: (definitely speaking of our walk here on earth, not in heaven)

5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather (willing to a greater degree)

to be absent from the body (in the flesh), and to be present with the Lord (walking in the Spirit which is what those do who are indwelt with the presence of the Lord).

5:9 Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. (If Paul were talking about being in heaven, there would be no need of Laboring to be accepted by Him, so he is definitely speaking of those who are still alive, here on this earth)

5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he has done, whether it be good or bad. (here Paul concludes what he is trying to say, that while here, we are in the flesh but are to dwell in the Spirit so that we will not fulfill the deeds of the flesh, but will live in the Spirit as described in Roman 8. If one is in heaven, he has no body to be present in, thus he cannot commit any deeds to be judged whether they re good and evil, and he will not be judged)

Sometimes Paul takes a very round about method in trying to communicate a point. Here from His own words, it becomes very clear that he is speaking about those who are still here on the earth, subject to judgment and not those who are in heaven, for none are in heaven, excepting those who have already been translated such as Enoch and those who have already been resurrected such as Moses.

I refer all to Romans 8 for Paul's concept of the body while here on earth:

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken (give life to) your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you.

8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

8:13 For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live (eternally).

8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Here we have the same thought, expressed a little differently.

I would imagine that this will stir some controversy, but that is not the intent, just looking at what Paul really said. It is dangerous to build a doctrine from one or two verses without looking at the entire context, which clarifies what is being said.

God bless

Dennis

[Christian]

Greetings Brother Dennis,

Thank you for your thoughtful, concise, and well presented point on 2Corinthians 5:8. Your bi-color method is visually very accepting, and makes it easy to understand your take on the verses being discussed.

Might I ask you what translation you are using, and whether the points you made in blue are your embellishments or part of this translation?

Sometimes Paul takes a very round about method in trying to communicate a point. Here from His own words, it becomes very clear that he is speaking about those who are still here on the earth, subject to judgment and not those who are in heaven, for none are in heaven,

And so I take it by the above bolded statement that you do not subscribe to the "die and immediately go to heaven" postion?

excepting those who have already been translated such as Enoch and those who have already been resurrected such as Moses.

Enoch's "place" is unquestionable, since we are clearly told in Genesis 5:24 & Hebrews 11:5 what happened to him.

Genesis 5:24 and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

But Moses on the other hand did "die" as again we are clearly told in Deuteronomy 34:5-7

(5) So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.

(6) And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

(7) And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

So is your statement above, about Moses being resurrected, based on the Ephesians 4:8-10 stance that Christ emptied Paradise upon his resurrection and took those individuals to "heaven"? (of which Moses was one?).

If not, then what makes you take this position of Moses already being "resurrected".

Blessings to you,

in Christ,

Christian

[Christian]

Jesus himself used Allegory, stories or parable for his teaching. Why is that? The reason is that stories are easy to understand as they apply to everyday situation. His listeners are not always religious teachers but farmers and uneducated fishermen. To apply direct literal translation to such passages just means you end up with with a folk tale and meaningless statements. Take as an example this few verses.

Joh 10:7 Jesus therefore said unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

Joh 10:8 All that came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them

It is obvious in this context that Jesus is not a door with hinges and door knobs and we are not bleating sheep with 3 bags full of wool. God has given us a mind to discern the context of a verse.

A point very well made Brother! (and I've got to give you a for the sheep/bags of wool comment)

Similarly when Jesus ascended,

Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Act 1:10 And while they were looking steadfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Act 1:11 who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

Since Jesus when he ascended went up into heaven , and since we are in his presence,

Philippians 1:19-26

For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having adesire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

I do waver between the positions that you and Brother Massorite take on scriptural interpretations sometimes. For though I do adhere to a "literal" translation wherever possible to avoid incorrect speculations about it, there are times like the above sheep and doorknob verses that obviously need "interpretive" understanding.

So though I find Christ's ascension unquestionable by the Acts verses above,

I still find the verse...

Philippians 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

... to be interpretive.

Why can't "to be with Christ" be as figurative as "in Christ"? (After all we are not physically standing within the corporeal body of Christ by saying "I am in Christ"...right?)

Blessings,

His faithful servant,

Christian

[Pilgrim7]

Christian,

First of all let me say that I appreciate your attitude in discussing truth. Second of all I share your desire to fellowship with those of the same Spirit, who are open to truth, whom God's Spirit is leading into all truth.

First point: I use the King James, but simplify it a bit for to clarify its meaning, adding comments from Strong's or my own which stress some things that people might miss in a quick reading. I have found that many miss obvious points in Scripture because certain points are stressed from the Pulpit and others completely ignored, as the Scripture in discussion. Usually the answer to many supposed contradictions is in the context of the verse in question. Many other times there are other Scriptures that help to clarify each other as I pointed out.

Second Point: I do not ascribe to the teaching that the dead go immediately to heaven or hell, for I do not find that supported by the evidence in the Scriptures. Even Jesus did not go immediately to heaven, but was in the tomb until the third day before being resurrected.

Third Point: As you pointed out, Moses died. Thus in order for Moses to be talking with Jesus, He would have to be alive, just as alive as was Elijah, and to be alive after having died, then He would have to have been resurrected, for that is the only way to come back to life after death. A Scripture that I believe supports that contention is:

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Why would the Devil dispute over the Body of Moses if not over Him being resurrected. Satan is the accuser of the brethren, and I believe was saying that it was not right to resurrect Moses for He sinned just before entering the Promised land.

What I have found that if I ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the meaning of the word to me, He does for that is one of his jobs. I have no wisdom of my own and when I think I do, then I am in total darkness. What I have shared is what the Spirit revealed to me as a result of my prayer. As I search out issues and look at the original languages, God solidifies my understanding showing me things that I never could have understood on my own, even through diligent study.

I have ceased seeking for any denomination for all truth. Some are closer that others, but it seems to be an individual quest in which He is forming His church, without spot or wrinkle, not a denomination, but His bride, a pure virgin, called to be separate from the world and worldly religion. Maybe that is why Jesus stated that where two or three are gathered together in His name, seeking only to please Him, the Bridegroom, there He would be. Some seem to think that fellowship has to be with a large body. Fellowship in Christ is with those in whom Christ dwells, no matter how small the group.

God bless and keep you Brother Christian on your 'Pilgrim's Progress',

Dennis

[Massorite]

Christian,

First of all let me say that I appreciate your attitude in discussing truth. Second of all I share your desire to fellowship with those of the same Spirit, who are open to truth, whom God's Spirit is leading into all truth.

First point: I use the King James, but simplify it a bit for to clarify its meaning, adding comments from Strong's or my own which stress some things that people might miss in a quick reading. I have found that many miss obvious points in Scripture because certain points are stressed from the Pulpit and others completely ignored, as the Scripture in discussion. Usually the answer to many supposed contradictions is in the context of the verse in question. Many other times there are other Scriptures that help to clarify each other as I pointed out.

Second Point: I do not ascribe to the teaching that the dead go immediately to heaven or hell, for I do not find that supported by the evidence in the Scriptures. Even Jesus did not go immediately to heaven, but was in the tomb until the third day before being resurrected.

Third Point: As you pointed out, Moses died. Thus in order for Moses to be talking with Jesus, He would have to be alive, just as alive as was Elijah, and to be alive after having died, then He would have to have been resurrected, for that is the only way to come back to life after death. A Scripture that I believe supports that contention is:

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Why would the Devil dispute over the Body of Moses if not over Him being resurrected. Satan is the accuser of the brethren, and I believe was saying that it was not right to resurrect Moses for He sinned just before entering the Promised land.

What I have found that if I ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the meaning of the word to me, He does for that is one of his jobs. I have no wisdom of my own and when I think I do, then I am in total darkness. What I have shared is what the Spirit revealed to me as a result of my prayer. As I search out issues and look at the original languages, God solidifies my understanding showing me things that I never could have understood on my own, even through diligent study.

I have ceased seeking for any denomination for all truth. Some are closer that others, but it seems to be an individual quest in which He is forming His church, without spot or wrinkle, not a denomination, but His bride, a pure virgin, called to be separate from the world and worldly religion. Maybe that is why Jesus stated that where two or three are gathered together in His name, seeking only to please Him, the Bridegroom, there He would be. Some seem to think that fellowship has to be with a large body. Fellowship in Christ is with those in whom Christ dwells, no matter how small the group.

God bless and keep you Brother Christian on your 'Pilgrim's Progress',

Dennis

I agree with you Dennis. Some might think that I am wrong but I really don't go to church very much. My heart longs for a place to go to be with the brethren and worship God with them. There is a place I can go when I am in deep worship accompanied with music and it seems that I can only get there in a house of worship. It is a place where I truly feel one with Christ and when I am there I sometimes have visions. Not necessarily prophetic but more relational and I miss it very much. But I find it so very hard to sit in church listening to tainted preaching or doctrinal teaching that simply does,t fit with what scripture says.

I believe that God is calling His own out of that which is tainted. He comes for a body without spot or wrinkle and it is not the church as we know it to day.

Here is a question that will cause one to think. " If when we die we go straight to heaven and when Jesus ascended He took all who were in Paradise with Him to heaven including Moses and all of the other old testament saints. Which means that paradise is now empty and no one else who dies in Christ will be going there from now on.

Why as it says in Revelation 20:12 does the Book of Life need to be opened at the Great White Throne Judgment?

I mean if every one who is supposed to go to heaven, including the old testament saints like Moses are already in heaven there is no need to open the Book of Life. Because everyone's name who is written in it has already been judged worthy to go to heaven. There is no need to judge those who have already been judged so the Book of life being opened at the Great White Judgment is useless. Unless of course there are names written in there of people who are in need of Judgment and if there are names written in the Book Of Life who have not been judged who could they be?

[Christian]

Brother Dennis,

I am both humbled by your kind words, and blessed by your presence here in this discussion. I appreciate your observation about my methods (attitude), as it just confirms to me that I am achieving that which I have set out for. We are warned of stubborness and prideful contentions by our Lord, and I try to avoid them both. There is much for us to learn in our gatherings of "two or three", and I relish the chance to have calm, scriptural, truth based exploration of His word with like minded, Spirit led individuals like yourself.

There can only be one truth, and I am more interested in knowing it, than defending my "position" on it. I easily accept the possibility of my being wrong about something if a greater truth is revealed to me clearly and scripturally. I do not "debate" truth, and feel that brothers and sisters should walk away and pray on issues when angry impasses are reached. I agree with you that the Spirit will reveal the truth to us in these cases...not "wisdom". Also, like you, I can no longer seek "denominational" assurance for any position, as they have been so cross-pollinated and corrupted that it seems like "unquestioning adherence" and "function" has become more important than "truth" to them. I accuse no one in particular, I am merely making an observation about the "snowball effect" created by decades of small bits of incorrect teachings, accumulating into the large denominational juggernaut before us. Many have been swayed by teaching and viewpoints of these institutions for years, which when wrong, only propagate generations of incorrect teaching.

First point: I use the King James, but simplify it a bit for to clarify its meaning, adding comments from Strong's or my own which stress some things that people might miss in a quick reading. I have found that many miss obvious points in Scripture because certain points are stressed from the Pulpit and others completely ignored, as the Scripture in discussion. Usually the answer to many supposed contradictions is in the context of the verse in question. Many other times there are other Scriptures that help to clarify each other as I pointed out.

I too believe that we need the Bible to interpret the Bible...not man or the church. Better understanding of verse context (which I insist on), and understanding the original language/word translations via Strongs or Thayers Concordances helps us interpret more accurately. I am not a fan of "Commentaries" as they tend to fall into that denominational "slanting" I spoke of above.

I do not ascribe to the teaching that the dead go immediately to heaven or hell, for I do not find that supported by the evidence in the Scriptures. Even Jesus did not go immediately to heaven, but was in the tomb until the third day before being resurrected.

Then what is your position?

As you pointed out, Moses died. Thus in order for Moses to be talking with Jesus, He would have to be alive, just as alive as was Elijah, and to be alive after having died, then He would have to have been resurrected, for that is the only way to come back to life after death.

Though Matthew 17:3, Mark 9:4 speak of this moment;

Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Mark 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

It is interesting that Luke 9:30-32 speaks of them being in "heavy sleep" when this meeting first occurs. Is it possible that they could have beheld a dreamlike "vision" of this meeting, more symbolic than actual? Also, why Moses and Elijah, and not the two "translated" ones Elijah and Enoch?

Luke 9:30-32

(30) And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

(31) Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

(32) But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

A Scripture that I believe supports that contention is:

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Why would the Devil dispute over the Body of Moses if not over Him being resurrected. Satan is the accuser of the brethren, and I believe was saying that it was not right to resurrect Moses for He sinned just before entering the Promised land.

I understood this contention to be about not letting Satan have a chance at creating an earthly "temple" for Moses at his burial spot, with the hope of idolatrous worship for Moses there by the Jews...further angering God.

(* side note: who do you believe the "he" spoken of in Dueteronomy 34:6 is?)

Deuteronomy 34:6

And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

May His blessings rest upon you Brother,

His faithful servant,

in Christ,

Christian

[Christian]

Brother Massorite,

I have missed you dear brother, and I'm glad you have remained here with me to continue this discussion. I find your question to be quite compelling, and deserving of a discussion of it's own, so I'm wondering if you would mind if I split this topic off to cover just that. My concern is that I don't wish this thread to get off topic, into a "Revelation theory" direction. As you and I have discussed an interest in having a Revelation/timeline study, maybe this would be a chance to finally do that? I pray that you will not take offense to this, and that you will enjoy the additional chance to expand our discussion there.

Link: The Book of Life and the Great White Throne Judgement

Peace to you my Brother,

in Christ

-N-

[Pilgrim7]

Brother Christian,

(Pilgrim7 @ Jan 1 2008, 07:54 AM)

I do not ascribe to the teaching that the dead go immediately to heaven or hell, for I do not find that supported by the evidence in the Scriptures. Even Jesus did not go immediately to heaven, but was in the tomb until the third day before being resurrected.

Then what is your position?

My position is the same as our Lords, who said that death is a sleep and then demonstrated this by raising dead Lazarus from his death sleep in the tomb.

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he said to them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall be well.

11:13 Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

11:14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent you may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

Death is death, but is called sleep for all will be awakened from the sleep of death in one of the Resurrections. Here Job speaks of the Resurrection of the Just:

Job 14:12 So man lies down, and rises not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

14:13 O that you would hide me in the grave (Here we have the bed of those who sleep, just as Lazarus), that you would keep me secret, until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me! (the resurrection of the just)

14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

14:15 you shall call, and I will answer you: you will have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Ps 17:15 As for me, I will behold your face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with your likeness.

Though Matthew 17:3, Mark 9:4 speak of this moment;

Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Mark 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

It is interesting that Luke 9:30-32 speaks of them being in "heavy sleep" when this meeting first occurs. Is it possible that they could have beheld a dreamlike "vision" of this meeting, more symbolic than actual? Also, why Moses and Elijah, and not the two "translated" ones Elijah and Enoch?

Luke 9:30-32

(30) And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

(31) Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

(32) But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

As I read Luke 32, it seems to be saying that they were very tired, for that was their expression when one was tired. The verse goes on to say that when they were awake, literal translation is when they had become alert or shaken off their drowsiness, they saw Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus.

You wrote in reference to Jude 1:9

I understood this contention to be about not letting Satan have a chance at creating an earthly "temple" for Moses at his burial spot, with the hope of idolatrous worship for Moses there by the Jews...further angering God.

(* side note: who do you believe the "he" spoken of in Deuteronomy 34:6 is?)

Deuteronomy 34:6

And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

I am not sure where you have you have received this concept. I see no hint of it in Scripture. I try not to make a Scripture say more than it does. I see no mention anywhere in Scripture about Satan wanting to make an earthly temple to Moses. No offense meant here, for I perceive that you are just trying to stimulate discussion, but it sounds like another of man's speculations which one would hear from the Pulpit or some Commentary.

As I read Jude, I only see contention about the body of Moses. If the Devil wanted to build a temple to Moses, he would do it whether he knew the actual location or not. Who could prove him wrong. Just look at the temple built on the wrong Mt. Sinai. I see that when God raised Moses, Satan contended or disputed with Him. I see no other reason for Satan to dispute with God over the body of Moses. As I see it, the fact that no one knows the location has nothing to do with whether he was raised or not.

I am not sure who buried Moses, for the Scriptures do not specifically tell us. To me it does not matter, for he died and was buried. It could have been Joshua, his minister, or it could have been an Angel, or even God Himself. What God has not revealed, I don't need to know. I try to spend my time seeking to understand and follow that which God has revealed in His Word. The more I learn, the more I see that there is to learn.

God Bless you, it is a blessing to have a rational discussion without anger and accusation.

Dennis