Emily~Anne Posted November 28, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 146 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,308 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted November 28, 2007 Well, I believe the answer to that question, like some have already said is a resounding, yes. That is, their behavior and instinctual patterns changed heavily after the fall. Notice, that before the fall, man and animals were all vegetarian, which would mean that the slaying of animals would not be neccessary. How do you know that all animals were vegetarian? Well, for a simple reason. The first shedding of blood was done by god to atone for the sins of Adam. If animals were all peaceful, and that was the very first killing or shedding of blood of any kind, how else could they eat? Remember, if the state Adam and Eve were living in was totally sublime, and there was no death, if it's not meat they're eating, then what is it? The bible only speaks to death in the context of man though. It seems to me that scripture really does not speak to the biology of animals at all. Fruit or vegetable or grass (perhaps thats a vegetable). To eat anything other than that, of course, would admit something had to be slaughtered. Also, in the bible it does say that the lion and the sheep or ox (I believe, it was sheep or ox, forget which animal) will lay down together and eat straw. I am assuming you are referring to this: Isaiah 11:6-7 "Then the wolf shall be a guest of the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; The calf and the young lion shall browse together, with a little child to guide them. The cow and the bear shall be neighbors, together their young shall rest; the lion shall eat hay like the ox." Thats a metaphorical passage though. In context its obvious its not literal at all, but is rather symbolic of what the ancient hebrews thought of as a universal peace and justice during messianic times. For example, obviously lions are not literally going to eat hay, felines are completely carnivorous, they can't even digest plant matter. From a biological perspective, and thus I would think (nothing in the Bible indicates either way to me), from the creator's perspective (God), a balance of predator and prey is always indicative of a harmonious ecosystem and I don't know of anything in scripture or in the fossil / genetic record that indicates otherwise, either before or after the fall of man. I am not meaning to be argumentative though, this is all in the contest of "it seems to me". Ye of such little faith! Is man's knowledge and wisdom more reliable than God? Proverbs 26:12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christ_Sheep Posted November 28, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 62 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/20/1983 Share Posted November 28, 2007 (edited) Well, I believe the answer to that question, like some have already said is a resounding, yes. That is, their behavior and instinctual patterns changed heavily after the fall. Notice, that before the fall, man and animals were all vegetarian, which would mean that the slaying of animals would not be neccessary. How do you know that all animals were vegetarian? Well, for a simple reason. The first shedding of blood was done by god to atone for the sins of Adam. If animals were all peaceful, and that was the very first killing or shedding of blood of any kind, how else could they eat? Remember, if the state Adam and Eve were living in was totally sublime, and there was no death, if it's not meat they're eating, then what is it? The bible only speaks to death in the context of man though. It seems to me that scripture really does not speak to the biology of animals at all. Fruit or vegetable or grass (perhaps thats a vegetable). To eat anything other than that, of course, would admit something had to be slaughtered. Also, in the bible it does say that the lion and the sheep or ox (I believe, it was sheep or ox, forget which animal) will lay down together and eat straw. I am assuming you are referring to this: Isaiah 11:6-7 "Then the wolf shall be a guest of the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; The calf and the young lion shall browse together, with a little child to guide them. The cow and the bear shall be neighbors, together their young shall rest; the lion shall eat hay like the ox." Thats a metaphorical passage though. In context its obvious its not literal at all, but is rather symbolic of what the ancient hebrews thought of as a universal peace and justice during messianic times. For example, obviously lions are not literally going to eat hay, felines are completely carnivorous, they can't even digest plant matter. From a biological perspective, and thus I would think (nothing in the Bible indicates either way to me), from the creator's perspective (God), a balance of predator and prey is always indicative of a harmonious ecosystem and I don't know of anything in scripture or in the fossil / genetic record that indicates otherwise, either before or after the fall of man. I am not meaning to be argumentative though, this is all in the contest of "it seems to me". Oh, no, don't worry at all man. I know you are just voicing your point. It's good to have a good old discussion, it's what this board is for anyway. What you said makes total logical sense. I guess my view would be, if god said there would be no more death ( I would imagine) he would be blanket statement mentioning, no death of any kind. To me, if it's end times and I am walking around in eternity and seeing death and decay, even if it's a balance as you put it between predator and prey, in a totally perfect environment, why would anything need to be killed for anyone or anything to eat? In fact, since we will have nothing but pleasant memories in eternity, maybe I am being a bit naturalistic, but I couldn't see myself having a pleasant thought of watching an animal kill another animal, least of all for food. I would think eating something without a living soul would make more sense in a totally perfect environment. For instance, I wouldn't care if I saw a giraffe eating apples from an apple tree, because I know the apple wasn't once a living creature that had a family. However, we do know the phrase that children will play with snakes is not merely metaphorical, why? Because, in a perfect environment there would be no need to fear anything. Manipulation, Intimidation and fear will be done away with. So a Cobra would be perfectly fine to pick up, I wouldn't worry about it biting me. Because the reason it bit me would be because of fear, and a need to defend itself. To me, those feelings of insecurity won't exists as it concerns humans and as it applies to animals, too. Though, like you, not being preachy or argumentative just trying to stress my point. About felines not digesting plants. Well, we can only judge what they can or cannot ingest and digest within the frame and mold we see them in now. We run test and conduct studies on animals, way after the fall of the earth. Obviously, in a fallen world where things are twisted and perversed, it would appear to be that way. Because everything we see now is not in mint condition, like it was in the beginning before sin. In the beginning, it seems to me that felines should eat plants perfectly fine, because they were perfected back then. They couldn't become sick. Because sickness is apart of the curse, nothing gets sick in a place of harmony and love. As for Emily Anne, I will say that demons are not the beast that the bible speaks of. Because demons do not fear humans, least not initially, they fear faith. Demons we can't even see, they're spirits. Humans, of course, are finite beings, and we pose no threat physically to spiritual beings. Animals, however, I believe is the "beast on the earth" the bible refers to. Animals have a natural fear of humans after the fall, that is very much true. Try getting close to a deer and see if it sticks around or not. Usually, horses and other animals that walk on the ground are considered beast. But, whom knows, maybe sparrows are too, (smiles). Edited November 28, 2007 by Christ_Sheep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrestkc Posted November 28, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted November 28, 2007 Ye of such little faith! Is man's knowledge and wisdom more reliable than God? Proverbs 26:12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him. Ye of such closed mindedness. The Bible is not a biology text book. No where in scripture does it say or indicate that it is. The Bible is the inspired and authoritative source of truth about God, Christ, and the Christian life. By your logic, it would seem that since the Bible speaks nothing of nuclear fusion then nuclear fusion is a deception. We discover scientific knowledge about God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emily~Anne Posted November 28, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 146 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,308 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted November 28, 2007 *edit* Ye of such closed mindedness. You betcha! Matthew 7:13-14 (New International Version) The Narrow and Wide Gates 13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. I wonder, is it against science for Jesus have been able to rise from the dead? What about all the miracles he performed? Are all those simply metaphorical too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrestkc Posted November 28, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted November 28, 2007 However, we do know the phrase that children will play with snakes is not merely metaphorical, why? Because, in a perfect environment there would be no need to fear anything. Manipulation, Intimidation and fear will be done away with. So a Cobra would be perfectly fine to pick up, I wouldn't worry about it biting me. Because the reason it bit me would be because of fear, and a need to defend itself. To me, those feelings of insecurity won't exists as it concerns humans and as it applies to animals, too. Though, like you, not being preachy or argumentative just trying to stress my point. Ok, just for the sake of discussion though, as you pointed out, a cobra strikes you because it fears you, not because you fear it. Maybe the perfect environment is one where animals no longer fear man and man no longer fears animals, not where there is no longer a predator / prey relationship in nature. As someone that has done a lot of wilderness backpacking and canoe trips I have always found that nature (God's creation), seems to be in perfect harmony when its left untouched by man. What is not at peace and in harmony is man. To quote John Muir: "Plants, animals, and stars are all kept in place, bridled along appointed ways, with one another, and through the midst of one another Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrestkc Posted November 28, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted November 28, 2007 *edit* Ye of such closed mindedness. You betcha! Matthew 7:13-14 (New International Version) The Narrow and Wide Gates 13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. I wonder, is it against science for Jesus have been able to rise from the dead? What about all the miracles he performed? Are all those simply metaphorical too? Absolutely not, but we also do not have all of creation telling us that its obviously metaphorical either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emily~Anne Posted November 28, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 146 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,308 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted November 28, 2007 The bible makes alot more sense than you do Forrest. I'll go by that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emily~Anne Posted November 28, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 146 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,308 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted November 28, 2007 Good post Rufus! Here is something I got in my email: It is interesting that in symbolizing the death of His One and Only Son God utilizes animals. We note for example the in substitution for the sacrifice of Isaac God provided a ram, representing Christ. Likewise under the Mosaic law it was not human sacrifice which cover sin, but animal sacrifice. And who can enter the Most Holy Place? Only the high priests once a year, but not without the blood of an animal. And likewise in Revelation Christ is portrayed as a lion in one case (Rev 5:5) and as a lamb in the other (Rev 5:6). Animals have a noble calling, whether it be as a source of food, or as a innocent sacrifice, as a work animal, or as a companion. I recall a story the prophet Nathan told King David in 2Samuel 12 The LORD sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, "There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him. Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him." David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, "As surely as the LORD lives, the man who did this deserves to die! He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity." David had grown up a shepherd and experienced the compassion many pet owners feel. Pets are an object of grace. We all need objects of grace to exercise that attribute of graciousness characteristic of God, having been made in the image of God. Dogs are good in portraying humility, obedience and faithfulness. And likewise each animal can teach us something, which is why Solomon writes, "Go to the ant, you sluggard! Consider her ways and be wise" Pr 6:6 As for what happens to animals after they die the Bible is largely silent. For Bible is not about animals. It's not about alot of things. The Bible is about man's relationship with God. However there is an interesting verse in Ecc 3:21 "Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?" So while the Bible doesn't tell us what happens to them, it does seem to indicate that they do have a spirit which goes somewhere after death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted December 2, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted December 2, 2007 Animals are equipped to fight off predators. Did they change after the fall, because before the fall they didn't need to fight off other animals? Ther Bible does not adress this directly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
givennewname Posted December 3, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 324 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/29/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/16/1964 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Animals are equipped to fight off predators. Did they change after the fall, because before the fall they didn't need to fight off other animals? Ther Bible does not adress this directly Hi EricH, Greetings in the name of the Lord. Actually the Bible does address this. Before the fall, there was no bloodshed. Most of the inhabitants of the Garden of Eden were herbivarous and vegetarians including Adam and Eve. Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat: Gen 3:3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. It was after the fall that blood was shed and the condition persists until we get to the Millenial Kingdom when the conditions akin to the original Garden of Eden will be restored and carnivorous animals will no longer shed blood again: Isa 11:6 And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den. Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith Jehovah. New Creature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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