Guest shiloh357 Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 But the things described in Revelation often have to do with things which have not occurred, mainly the Second Coming. In the spirit of honest inquiry, how do you know this? Lay it down for me Rev. 19 pertains to Jesus' bodily return, Rev. 20 pertains to His Millennial reign where satan is bound for 1,000 years as well as the renovation of earth and the New Heavens and the New Earth Rev. 21. None of those events have happened yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted December 13, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted December 13, 2007 But the things described in Revelation often have to do with things which have not occurred, mainly the Second Coming. In the spirit of honest inquiry, how do you know this? Lay it down for me But the things described in Revelation often have to do with things which have not occurred, mainly the Second Coming. In the spirit of honest inquiry, how do you know this? Lay it down for me Rev. 19 pertains to Jesus' bodily return, Rev. 20 pertains to His Millennial reign where satan is bound for 1,000 years as well as the renovation of earth and the New Heavens and the New Earth Rev. 21. None of those events have happened yet. See Shilo's post above as a start. I am certainly not saying that all of Revelation is in the future; you can't read the book and not see that some of it indeed pertains to occurrences at that time, and some are indeed allegorical, but it is all pointing in one direction and that is the return of Christ and the end of time. Revelation shows the final judgment, the final judgment has not occurred as I am able to sit here and write these words and you can read them. Now I do agree that we can really be carried off track with this book by trying to search all over the place and all over scripture for connections to the visions described, they are indeed visions, I am not a literalist, but Revelation obviously is not talking about things which have already happened, unless we don't believe that any of those things such as the Second Coming of Christ or the Judgment of souls will actually happen and what is shown in Revelation is simply a fanciful mythology? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 13, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 13, 2007 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Rev 12:6-7 (KJV) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Rev 12:14 (KJV) So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. Rev 17:3 (KJV) Both the woman with the crown and the whore are in the wilderness, what does that mean? It has to do with what the wilderness means . . . I'm not sure of what that is, per se . . . I only know that many men of God spent time in the wilderness for a reason. It is interesting that the Beast is carrying Mystery Babylon in the wilderness, though. That is an interesting question. But, no - the two women are not the same! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 13, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 13, 2007 However, John's readers understood the whore as a reference to Rome. How do you know this? Do you have any documents from the 1st century church indicating this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted December 13, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted December 13, 2007 19 Write therefore the things which thou hast seen, and which are, and which must be done hereafter. I think far too often people do not understand that the majority of Revelations is written about what hast been seen and that which was current at the time. Only a small part is about the future, far too often this is lost in the understanding of the book. The message is for all generations, the specifics most often are describing the current (their time) or their past. It becomes a real stumbling block when we try to attach the descriptions to current institutions, or people. The message applies, the actual detail of the description does not. God Bless, K.D. No, no. The details are very important in any prophetic Scripture given in the Bible. The details are extremely relevant, because it is the details that determine the difference between a true fulfillment of biblical prophecy and a man-made attempt at fullfilling a prophecy. When the details are fufilled, we know it is God. Take for example, the return of Israel to their homeland. Jeremiah 32:44 tells us that when the Jews return to the land from worldwide exile (not the Babylonian exile), they would buy parcels of land, and Jeremiah tells us exactly what land would be purchased. He gives us precise locations. The Jews in the late 1800s and early 1900s purchased land in what was then called "Palestine" from absentee Turkish landowners who were all too happy to rid themselves of the worthless deserts and swamps. If you look at Israel proper, it sits on the exact same purchased land parcels that Jeremiah predicted right down to the cities of Negev where many Israelis live today. The Jews did not purchase any land after the Babylonian exile and that is why we know the OT prophecies about Israel's return to the Land have nothing to do with the return from Babylon. The Jews who settled the land were mostly agnostic and atheist, and had no use or care for the Bible. They fulfilled Bible prophecy down to the last detail and had no idea who was guiding them. Had they been religious Jews, people could have said, it was not God, but just a bunch of religious fanatics trying to force Bible prophecy to come true. Ezekiel, in an obscure prophecy, tells us that part of Israel's restoration will include the return of the Shekel as Israel's currency, and today that is already true. So, details are extremely important, because anyone make something look like a fulfilled prophecy, but the truth is that God, historically has always fulfilled every prophecy thus far down to the last detail. The detailed descriptions in Revelation are jsut as important as the rest of what is written. I must not have explained my self well. What I am trying to say is that when we find a description that fits an existing known entity, Like ancient pagan Rome, it is not wise then to try and apply that same description to something modern and point to the modern city, or entity. We need to understand and accept that the description is about (in this example) Rome. The message will apply to all generations. Keep in mind I am only talking about when we can identify the description to a known entity of their time. Now there are most definitely parts that talk of a future event. I would agree that anything that is about the future, the details become very important. What I find is that people are looking at a description of something that has already occurred and trying to find it in the future (present day). In doing so they have missed the message which was the whole point in the first place. The description of the whore physically fits ancient Rome, it would make sense for the writer to describe it this way, otherwise he would have been killed. The people understood he was describing Rome. Just because he was describing Rome at that time does not mean the same message does not apply today. We have our own Rome. We have our own Whore. But trying to take the physical descriptions of ancient Rome and finding a city, or institution of today that fits it perfectly is fruitless and you end up missing the whole message. God Bless, K.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 13, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 13, 2007 By the way, if you believe that Rome was Babylon - Who do you believe the Beast is or was? And who would the "false prophet be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted December 13, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted December 13, 2007 By the way, if you believe that Rome was Babylon - Who do you believe the Beast is or was? And who would the "false prophet be? Nero's name adds to 666, He fits the description perfectly. We must understand that this physical description is of him. The message is for us. We have our own Beast, our own Whore, But trying to find a beast that fits his exact physical description is fruitless. The message to us is; there will be a beast, just like Nero in our time as well, and in every generation and he will only be defeated when Christ returns. That is why we also see reference to the Beast in the future. The Beast will always exist until Jesus returns. False prophets will always exist leading people away from God and into the realm of the Beast in every generation until Jesus returns. If you try to match the physical description of the false prophet of their times to a person of our time you will miss the point. We have our own false prophets. They will exist in every generation until Jesus returns. God Bless, K.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 13, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 13, 2007 That's interesting you should say that. I recently read a comparison of the understanding of time. In western cultures (of which we are a part), we think of time is linear. In eastern cultures (of which the Hebrew people are a part of), time is considered to be circular. What you are describing sounds like a circular understanding of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted December 13, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted December 13, 2007 That's interesting you should say that. I recently read a comparison of the understanding of time. In western cultures (of which we are a part), we think of time is linear. In eastern cultures (of which the Hebrew people are a part of), time is considered to be circular. What you are describing sounds like a circular understanding of time. I will be the first to admit that I could be completely and totally wrong about this. This is what makes the most sense to me. When I look to the fruit of what other interpretations bring I am not reminded of God. I see hatred, division, pride, and arrogance. From the perspective I have submitted I find it calls us to be humble, called to love one another, called to become one voice used by God. and my wife tells me I go in circles all the time God Bless, K.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted December 13, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted December 13, 2007 That's interesting you should say that. I recently read a comparison of the understanding of time. In western cultures (of which we are a part), we think of time is linear. In eastern cultures (of which the Hebrew people are a part of), time is considered to be circular. What you are describing sounds like a circular understanding of time. I will be the first to admit that I could be completely and totally wrong about this. This is what makes the most sense to me. When I look to the fruit of what other interpretations bring I am not reminded of God. I see hatred, division, pride, and arrogance. From the perspective I have submitted I find it calls us to be humble, called to love one another, called to become one voice used by God. and my wife tells me I go in circles all the time God Bless, K.D. Reminds me of a song by Billy Preston, "Will it go round in circles?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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