Calvin vs. Arminius

[saved34]

Sword, take special note that it says "especially of those that believe". Yes it is true that Christ's atoning work is FOR all men, but only those who enter by faith will reap the benefits. Universalism is a false teaching. The bible is clear that those who do not believe are lost, condemned already.

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Joh 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."

2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.

2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

The lake of fire is very real, and it is the final destination of all who reject the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

It is called death, because they are eternally separated from God, who is life. That is the horrible scene for many who will not receive the love of the truth that God loved them and sent Jesus to pay for their sins.

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

[larryt]

NOTE ORIGINAL REPLY, reply to original question

Interesting post, so many replies. Has anyone actually read them all? interesting also because I had never even heard of Arminius till recently and this question is timely.

I find it interesting that theologians will invent their own terminology which is not found in the bible, and then people will fight over it tooth and nail, excommunicate each other, etc. It seems like many have very active imaginations. I just want to anchor my imagination to scripture.

Total Depravity, original sin? Well I know the church got so much from Augustine and I don't think it is safe to hold up one man so much. The bible does say all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But does the bible really emphasize our Total Depravity, that we have no goodness in us apart from grace? Show me the verses.

Hi sword,

I find it interesting that people do not think that they are depraved as much as the Word says that we are.

Paul says:

Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

He says there is NO good in the person of the flesh.

In Ephesians 2:1-5 Paul describes the great lengths that God went to to redeem man.

Eph 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph 2:4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

How holy do you view God? Is He infinitely holy? Will He tolerate any sin in heaven? How many sins does it take to invoke the death penalty in man?

Anyway let me cut to the heart of my view. Calvinism has many good things I agree with like the sovereignty of God's will. I am not sure I believe in "free will". Aside from the fact we will never be 'free' but only have "freedom from" (we will either be slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness), I can undermine free will with one word- desire. Free will generally means choosing what we desire and the limited power we are given for that. Maybe God grants us that in his grace, it is possible, but without grace we have no free will, for who establishes our desires? Did we create our desires from the foundation of the world? God puts desires in our hearts I believe.

But let me tell you where I part ways with both of these people. Generally when people are arguing back and forth regarding two sides, the solution may be a third side.

Here's what I think. I suppose I am not against the main point of Calvinism per se, in that we can't choose our salvation or to follow. Even faith is a gift of god. I could be wrong so I have to be a bit agnostic on this, but ok. I simply question the doctrine of an eternal conscious torment in a place that was translated as 'hell', with no possibility of escape. What about all the versus that say that Jesus is the savior of the WORLD, the savior of ALL men especially those who believe? I won't turn this thread into an apologetics for that view. I believe though that universalism runs like a golden thread through the bible although not so immediately apparent, especially to modern eyes and those who don't go deep with the bible or who trust received theology rather than scripture unwilling to renew their minds. I could be wrong and I hesitate because I am new in studying this, but that is the sense I get, that people are unwilling to even question. And yet the LORD Yahweh repeatedly sets up a pattern where he humbles, he brings low, and then raises up, be it nations or people, so that people will know that he is Yahweh. At the very least I would say there is no eternal hell- for the word eternal is aionios and the word hell is gehenna (symbol rich only used by Jesus except once by James if I am not mistaken), and I think maybe the immortality of the soul idea comes from Greek- meaning if we are bad (unrepentent, candidates for fire) the worst we need suffer is death.

So while being a bit Calivinistic in my thinking of God's sovereignty and human will (look at Saul's conversion into Paul- he didn't COME to Christ, but Christ came to him- and blinded him) my views of at least Annihilationism or maybe better, Universalism, take the sting out of it.

And let me say one more thing I have read about Calvin, and anyone is free to defend him, because I admit I am no scholar and someone can correct me. I have read that he was a murderer and used fire to silence his critics, the heretics. Is this the message that Jesus preached? Even to a fellow Christian! Doesn't Jesus' words "By their fruits ye shall know them" apply to this? If the fruit is bad, how can the tree be good? I say this not in judgement. He was a product of his time and place, and I shall not play the blame game or the self righteousness game, but I do question whether he was a worthy teacher and source of truth in these matters, and in the doctrine of God's love.

We need to put together a doctrine of God's love. Invariably people will say- yeah but he's also holy. So we can start a poll about that. what affect God's love has on his holiness and vice versa. Now I am sure many of you, maybe the site administrators, see me as a dangerous heretic and will take actions to restrain me! I hope not but whatever, Jesus came to cause division, Jesus was called a heretic and a blasphemer. I admit, I don't know for sure these things, I am still seeking and learning, but I do know one thing on which we can agree- Christ is King, the son of God and son of Man who died on the tree to take away our sins, Amen

thank you

Now I think I will quote you

It seems like many have very active imaginations. I just want to anchor my imagination to scripture.

Show me the verses.

LT

[Guest swordofpeace]

thank you

[larryt]

LT

I understand and I see where you are coming from, but the point of this post was not to be an apologist for any view. I just wanted to share my view which is the fruit of a little study. I can't go back and quote everything I have read about it. And I definitely don't want to get in arguments or debates. I definitely am trying to bring my imagination under control. I am not out to change people's doctrine. that requires the holy spirit or their own readiness. I am here to share or maybe to inspire. Sometimes I may quote verses but I will definitely avoid battles, which I fear will happen on the internet. I think so many views are clouded by church tradition and not by scripture. I just want everyone to question every belief and doctrine and go to scripture and language, learn a little about critical greek words, etc. At the very least this should open one's mind a bit to other possibilities, or bring about humility. What strikes me about both strong Calvinism and Arminianism is that they both claim to have certain knowledge of the truth, yet they can't both be right. Humility anyone? To me this is renewing one's mind with scripture- to be willing to throw everything out- and what comes back after good study is what belongs. Like winnowing grain- one may have to try this process several times to get rid of all of the chaff. But major changes in beliefs and doctrines can't- or shouldn't, come about in one hour of study. I am still working on it. Maybe there a "hell" (in the popular sense). I am just not seeing it as clearly as before. Any change as such is bound to be superficial. I don't give any verses because I don't want to go off into a debate. I don't have enough time for that. Just try to look with childlike eyes (and with a lexicon and the septuagint in your hand for the sake of word studies, which really are a must here unfortunately, if you are hard headed that is and need definite convincing about that word)

Maybe the solution to Calvinism and Arminianism is a third way out.

Maybe God's Sovereignty- as expressed by Calvinism, holds, and free will also holds- in that free will implies we choose things according to our desires. But God gives us our desires! Meaning he is sovereign at the ultimate level, and we have the ability to follow our desires. But we know- Romans 9 19- who has resisted his will? We can only execute God's will, not resist it- scripture seems to suggest, to me at least.

[D. OSAS]

Gasp! Where is the option to denounce both foolish extremes?

Calvinism is errant in that it makes our Sovereign God the author of sin and evil.

Arminisim is wrong in that it denies the faithfulness of God to preserve eternal life even in the face of wilfull rebellion.

While one can be totally Calvinistic or totally Arminian, it is impossible to be somewhere in between.

Dr. OSAS

[larryt]

Gasp! Where is the option to denounce both foolish extremes?

Calvinism is errant in that it makes our Sovereign God the author of sin and evil.

Arminisim is wrong in that it denies the faithfulness of God to preserve eternal life even in the face of wilfull rebellion.

While one can be totally Calvinistic or totally Arminian, it is impossible to be somewhere in between.

Dr. OSAS

God's sovereignty in no way make God the author of sin. We cannot understand this as long as we hold to a finite understanding of scripture and of who God is as He reveals Himself. The natural mine cannot grasp this as it thinks in terms of duality. Good & Evil, light & dark, positive & negative, hot & cold.

Question: Is there such a thing as heat?

2nd question: Is there such a thing as cold?

LT

[D. OSAS]

A simple denial of the obvious is not valid theology.

If God determines everything, then God determines sin and evil. God's Word is logical and we CAN understand it if we lay down our errant man-made assumptions.

God elects but ONE - Jesus Christ.

We all can freely choose to enter into Him.

This is the real teaching of Ephesians chapter 1.

God's election is "in Christ."

That phrase is stated some 12 times.

Calvinists usually miss every one of them.

The Bible is quite clear.

So is your unsubstantiated denial.

Dr. OSAS

Gasp! Where is the option to denounce both foolish extremes?

Calvinism is errant in that it makes our Sovereign God the author of sin and evil.

Arminisim is wrong in that it denies the faithfulness of God to preserve eternal life even in the face of wilfull rebellion.

While one can be totally Calvinistic or totally Arminian, it is impossible to be somewhere in between.

Dr. OSAS

God's sovereignty in no way make God the author of sin. We cannot understand this as long as we hold to a finite understanding of scripture and of who God is as He reveals Himself. The natural mine cannot grasp this as it thinks in terms of duality. Good & Evil, light & dark, positive & negative, hot & cold.

Question: Is there such a thing as heat?

2nd question: Is there such a thing as cold?

LT

[larryt]

A simple denial of the obvious is not valid theology.

If God determines everything, then God determines sin and evil. God's Word is logical and we CAN understand it if we lay down our errant man-made assumptions.

God elects but ONE - Jesus Christ.

We all can freely choose to enter into Him.

This is the real teaching of Ephesians chapter 1.

God's election is "in Christ."

That phrase is stated some 12 times.

Calvinists usually miss every one of them.

The Bible is quite clear.

So is your unsubstantiated denial.

Dr. OSAS

Please define "freely choose" so I can give an answer.

[larryt]

A simple denial of the obvious is not valid theology.

If God determines everything, then God determines sin and evil. God's Word is logical and we CAN understand it if we lay down our errant man-made assumptions.

God elects but ONE - Jesus Christ.

We all can freely choose to enter into Him.

This is the real teaching of Ephesians chapter 1.

God's election is "in Christ."

That phrase is stated some 12 times.

Calvinists usually miss every one of them.

The Bible is quite clear.

So is your unsubstantiated denial.

Dr. OSAS

Gasp! Where is the option to denounce both foolish extremes?

Calvinism is errant in that it makes our Sovereign God the author of sin and evil.

Arminisim is wrong in that it denies the faithfulness of God to preserve eternal life even in the face of wilfull rebellion.

While one can be totally Calvinistic or totally Arminian, it is impossible to be somewhere in between.

Dr. OSAS

God's sovereignty in no way make God the author of sin. We cannot understand this as long as we hold to a finite understanding of scripture and of who God is as He reveals Himself. The natural mine cannot grasp this as it thinks in terms of duality. Good & Evil, light & dark, positive & negative, hot & cold.

Question: Is there such a thing as heat?

2nd question: Is there such a thing as cold?

LT

Mt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect‘s sake those days shall be shortened.

Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mr 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect‘s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mr 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mr 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Lu 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect‘s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

2Jo 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

2Jo 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

Please explain how these verses use the word elect to refer to Jesus Christ.

[Guest Norrin Radd]

I can't vote, because the poll is biased and ill-informed.

"Daisy" is not a neutral term as TULIP is, but rather is almost always used in some pejorative fashion by Calvinists. Further, some of those apply only to the Wesleyan variant of Arminianism.